flaps again

snip
* *It is amazing how attitudes change over time and how certain flying
procedures become part of our culture.

* *If I recall correctly, it was some time back in the 70's when some FAA
bureaucrat made a PTS change decreeing that a normal landing was to be with full
flaps. *Before that, flap use was taught as something that was much more at the
pilot's option. *The change caused quite a furor at the time. *Some instructors
thought that full flap landings were much too advanced for mere student pilots!

Vaughn


My observation on this is that there are instructors that learned to
fly at large flight schools catering to teaching airline pilots. The
thing to remember is that these flight training schools are not
teaching these pilots to fly
single pilot single engine airplanes. Instead they use a Cessna 172 as
a 737 simulator and teach their students to fly a C-172 like it was a
737. The result is that these pilots do learn to make full flap
landings every time and no flap landings are an emergercy procedure as
they would be in a Boeing 737. This is an excellent and efficient
method to train airline pilots. (As a side thought I wonder if this
may have been some of the motivation behind Cessna removing the 40
degree flap setting, Since about the time they did that some of thier
biggest customers were these flight schools)

The problem comes when these pilots decide they want to teach General
Avation pilots to fly single engine airplanes. They will often tend to
teach they way they were taught. These instructors may start teaching
their students to fly 172's like it was a 737 and we see things
transfered from the 737 to the c-172 that really don't apply to the
C-172. For the pilot training to fly small single engine airplanes
they really should learn to use the flap as needed instead as just a
checklist item.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

My observation on this is that there are instructors that learned to
fly at large flight schools catering to teaching airline pilots. The
thing to remember is that these flight training schools are not
teaching these pilots to fly single pilot single engine airplanes.

Good point. I once checked out in a Piper Arrow a pilot who had been trained
at a place like that. He extended one notch of flaps before the landing gear,
because that's the way they do it in big airplanes. But it didn't make any
sense in the Arrow, as the max speed for gear extension is 150 mph, but for
flaps is only 125.

On Jan 1, 10:48*pm, Brian wrote:

My observation on this is that there are instructors that learned to
fly at large flight schools catering to teaching airline pilots. The
thing to remember is that these flight training schools are not
teaching these pilots to fly
single pilot single engine airplanes. Instead they use a Cessna 172 as
a 737 simulator and teach their students to fly a C-172 like it was a
737. The result is that these pilots do learn to make full flap
landings every time and no flap landings are an emergercy procedure as
they would be in a Boeing 737. This is an excellent and efficient
method to train airline pilots. (As a side thought I wonder if this
may have been some of the motivation behind Cessna removing the 40
degree flap setting, Since about the time they did that some of thier
biggest customers were these flight schools)

This procedure would be incorrect. About 99% of landings in a 737 are
done at flaps 30. Full flap is rarely used.

Brian wrote in
:

snip
* *It is amazing how attitudes change over time and how certain
flying

procedures become part of our culture.

* *If I recall correctly, it was some time back in the 70's when some
FAA
bureaucrat made a PTS change decreeing that a normal landing was to
be wit
h full
flaps. *Before that, flap use was taught as something that was much
more
at the
pilot's option. *The change caused quite a furor at the time. *Some
in
structors
thought that full flap landings were much too advanced for mere
student pi
lots!

Vaughn


My observation on this is that there are instructors that learned to
fly at large flight schools catering to teaching airline pilots. The
thing to remember is that these flight training schools are not
teaching these pilots to fly
single pilot single engine airplanes. Instead they use a Cessna 172 as
a 737 simulator and teach their students to fly a C-172 like it was a
737. The result is that these pilots do learn to make full flap
landings every time and no flap landings are an emergercy procedure as
they would be in a Boeing 737. This is an excellent and efficient
method to train airline pilots. (As a side thought I wonder if this
may have been some of the motivation behind Cessna removing the 40
degree flap setting, Since about the time they did that some of thier
biggest customers were these flight schools)

The problem comes when these pilots decide they want to teach General
Avation pilots to fly single engine airplanes. They will often tend to
teach they way they were taught. These instructors may start teaching
their students to fly 172's like it was a 737 and we see things
transfered from the 737 to the c-172 that really don't apply to the
C-172. For the pilot training to fly small single engine airplanes
they really should learn to use the flap as needed instead as just a
checklist item.


Absolutely true and it is getting to be a bigger problem all the time.
Even guys who are moving on to large aircraft are being cheated, IMO


Bertie

On 2008-01-01 21:48:18 -0800, Brian said:

snip
* *It is amazing how attitudes change over time and how certain flying

procedures become part of our culture.

* *If I recall correctly, it was some time back in the 70's when some
FAA
bureaucrat made a PTS change decreeing that a normal landing was to be wit
h full
flaps. *Before that, flap use was taught as something that was much more
at the
pilot's option. *The change caused quite a furor at the time. *Some in
structors
thought that full flap landings were much too advanced for mere student pi
lots!

Vaughn


My observation on this is that there are instructors that learned to
fly at large flight schools catering to teaching airline pilots. The
thing to remember is that these flight training schools are not
teaching these pilots to fly
single pilot single engine airplanes. Instead they use a Cessna 172 as
a 737 simulator and teach their students to fly a C-172 like it was a
737. The result is that these pilots do learn to make full flap
landings every time and no flap landings are an emergercy procedure as
they would be in a Boeing 737. This is an excellent and efficient
method to train airline pilots. (As a side thought I wonder if this
may have been some of the motivation behind Cessna removing the 40
degree flap setting, Since about the time they did that some of thier
biggest customers were these flight schools)

I have not observed this. The flight academies teach you to follow the
checklist that comes in the POH, not fly a 172 as if it was a 737. If
they taught you to fly the 172 like a 737, they would teach crosswind
landings differently. So I question your whole premise and the
conclusions that follow from it.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor