Europe as joke

Cub Driver schrieb:

Since when is a genocide a "uniquely European problem"? It happened in
Europe, but it could have happened anywhere else.

Since when has Europe been worried about genocide?

Since we have learned from WW2. Since it is common ground to tread
genocide as an international crime ("...against humanity"). Do you
discern on this position?

We (those you mentioned) try to face our history and approach pardon
and respect.. other nations still neglect their record. Nations who
are members of "the coalition".

You worried about Serbia only because it threatened
European interests.

In which aspect? The civil war blocked the land route to the EU member
Greece and the closed Danube, but what else besides threatened morale
and justice? Involving surrounding countries in the civil war?

I am not worried about Serbia, I am worried about the radical
nationalists of any given group in the Balkans, no matter if they rant
for "Great Serbia", "Great Albania" or whatever.. the UCK isn´t any
better then the bosnian serbs and the mercenaries who fought along
them.

The moment we pull out of Bosnia, Sarajevo will be back to the times
of sniper alley and bloodbaths on market places. Do you (demanding
"PULL OUT THE US FORCES!") really want that?

Saddam killed more Muslims than Slobo did. Why wasn't that genocide?

Who says it wasn´t? If you consider the actions against Kurds, thats
genocide. And it is a shame that our society (you, us, everyone
dealing with that dicator in the 1980s) accepted it without taking
direct initiative.

His absolute numbers ("more Muslims") probably result of the Gulf War
I... a war fought in times when Saddam Hussein shook hands with
Rumsfeld, when the Iraq was used as a glancing example of stability
and development in the middle east.

Killing Persians was obviously appropriate at that time.

Arafat is waging genocidal war against the Jews (picking up where
Europe left off). Why haven't you intervened in the Middle East
against him?

Why haven´t the USA?

And do recall what country provided the great weight of men and
weapons to fight in the Balkans. (Hint: it wasn't France, the rare
European country that actually has a military worth respecting.)

This is about those who demand "Pull out of the Balkans" - you don´t
start a war with Iraq when you haven´t finished another job
(stabilising the Balkans or Afghanistan - that country isn´t done yet,
as the only "secured area" is Kabul and the absolute proximities of
the capital).

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

Gruss, Roman

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 15:04:52 +0200, Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Cub Driver schrieb:

Since when is a genocide a "uniquely European problem"? It happened in
Europe, but it could have happened anywhere else.

Since when has Europe been worried about genocide?

Since we have learned from WW2. Since it is common ground to tread
genocide as an international crime ("...against humanity"). Do you
discern on this position?

You did not learn anything from WWII except to call for the US to
defend you.

We (those you mentioned) try to face our history and approach pardon
and respect.. other nations still neglect their record. Nations who
are members of "the coalition".

That explains the discrimination against the Turks, etc. in Germany?

You worried about Serbia only because it threatened
European interests.

In which aspect? The civil war blocked the land route to the EU member
Greece and the closed Danube, but what else besides threatened morale
and justice? Involving surrounding countries in the civil war?

The spread of a war is not uncommon in European history.

I am not worried about Serbia, I am worried about the radical
nationalists of any given group in the Balkans, no matter if they rant
for "Great Serbia", "Great Albania" or whatever.. the UCK isn´t any
better then the bosnian serbs and the mercenaries who fought along
them.

You are not worried about anything, after all, the US will come and
clean up your mess, as usual.

The moment we pull out of Bosnia, Sarajevo will be back to the times
of sniper alley and bloodbaths on market places. Do you (demanding
"PULL OUT THE US FORCES!") really want that?

We no longer care. If the EU wants to be anti-US, then they can
take care of their own problems.

Saddam killed more Muslims than Slobo did. Why wasn't that genocide?

Who says it wasn´t? If you consider the actions against Kurds, thats
genocide. And it is a shame that our society (you, us, everyone
dealing with that dicator in the 1980s) accepted it without taking
direct initiative.

And the Euroweinies did exactly what about it???

His absolute numbers ("more Muslims") probably result of the Gulf War
I... a war fought in times when Saddam Hussein shook hands with
Rumsfeld, when the Iraq was used as a glancing example of stability
and development in the middle east.

Killing Persians was obviously appropriate at that time.

Arafat is waging genocidal war against the Jews (picking up where
Europe left off). Why haven't you intervened in the Middle East
against him?

Why haven´t the USA?

You do not get out much, do you? The US has been the strongest
supporter of Israel for the last 50 years.

And do recall what country provided the great weight of men and
weapons to fight in the Balkans. (Hint: it wasn't France, the rare
European country that actually has a military worth respecting.)

This is about those who demand "Pull out of the Balkans" - you don´t
start a war with Iraq when you haven´t finished another job
(stabilising the Balkans or Afghanistan - that country isn´t done yet,
as the only "secured area" is Kabul and the absolute proximities of
the capital).

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

Gruss, Roman

Any the despicable Europeans have done what? Oh, yes, that is
right, they have done *nothing*. (Except of course, the Brits and the
Poles).

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard schrieb:

Since when has Europe been worried about genocide?

Since we have learned from WW2. Since it is common ground to tread
genocide as an international crime ("...against humanity"). Do you
discern on this position?

You did not learn anything from WWII except to call for the US to
defend you.

How do you know what I have learned?

We (those you mentioned) try to face our history and approach pardon
and respect.. other nations still neglect their record. Nations who
are members of "the coalition".

That explains the discrimination against the Turks, etc. in Germany?

What does this have to do with neglecting genocides?

And:Which discrimination? Immigrants are granted double citizenship,
equal rights, equal education.

A problem is the integration, but thats based upon decisions made by
the affected - if you don´t want to integrate yourself (like learning
the language, as many turks of the first and second generation did).

You worried about Serbia only because it threatened
European interests.

In which aspect? The civil war blocked the land route to the EU member
Greece and the closed Danube, but what else besides threatened morale
and justice? Involving surrounding countries in the civil war?

The spread of a war is not uncommon in European history.

So, where are Europes interests affected=

That is exactly why we are careful about declaring and pushing towards
war. We see it everyday what war does to nations, people, cities and
even landscapes. We don´t want it.

Man, your spreading buzzwords, but you aren´t argueing.

I am not worried about Serbia, I am worried about the radical
nationalists of any given group in the Balkans, no matter if they rant
for "Great Serbia", "Great Albania" or whatever.. the UCK isn´t any
better then the bosnian serbs and the mercenaries who fought along
them.

You are not worried about anything, after all, the US will come and
clean up your mess, as usual.

Again, How do you know what I am worried about? You love to simplify.

The moment we pull out of Bosnia, Sarajevo will be back to the times
of sniper alley and bloodbaths on market places. Do you (demanding
"PULL OUT THE US FORCES!") really want that?

We no longer care. If the EU wants to be anti-US, then they can
take care of their own problems.

If the USA wants to be isolationist, it may do it, but it will harm
itself and others.

And again, it is immorale. You don´t care if people suffer?

Saddam killed more Muslims than Slobo did. Why wasn't that genocide?

Who says it wasn´t? If you consider the actions against Kurds, thats
genocide. And it is a shame that our society (you, us, everyone
dealing with that dicator in the 1980s) accepted it without taking
direct initiative.

And the Euroweinies did exactly what about it???

Nothing. Or as much as the USA.


Arafat is waging genocidal war against the Jews (picking up where
Europe left off). Why haven't you intervened in the Middle East
against him?

Why haven´t the USA?

You do not get out much, do you? The US has been the strongest
supporter of Israel for the last 50 years.

Wrong. The USA/Israeli cooperation lasts only about 35 years. Until
about Rabins time as ambassador in Washington and until the Nixon
administration gained power Israel cooperated with Europe in terms of
weapons development and cooperation.

What have the USA done to intervene against Arafat, his Fatah or
Hamas? Nothing. Or as much as Europe.

Any the despicable Europeans have done what? Oh, yes, that is
right, they have done *nothing*. (Except of course, the Brits and the
Poles).

And Spain, and Czech Republic, and Denmark, and Italy, and... well,
even Germany. AWACS and the Fuchs in Kuwait.

Al Minyard

The world isn´t black and white. It´s shades of grey.

Gruss, Roman

If the USA wants to be isolationist, it may do it, but it will harm
itself and others.

And again, it is immorale. You don´t care if people suffer?


The problem is, we (The United States of America) seem to care more than the
immediate parties involved. Why did the US get dragged into the Balkans? If the
EU cared so much why wasn't France, Germany and Belgium providing the bulk of
combat forces? What was going on in the republics of Yugoslavia could have
still been continuing today and its impact on US national security would have
been zero. Would it have been horrible to watch on TV ? Of course, but we (and
the mighty Europeans who supposedly rise up to challenge genocide where ever it
rears its ugly head) watched with horror on TV at what happened in Rwanda
without getting involved.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:28:37 +0200, Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Alan Minyard schrieb:


You did not learn anything from WWII except to call for the US to
defend you.

How do you know what I have learned?

From your postings

We (those you mentioned) try to face our history and approach pardon
and respect.. other nations still neglect their record. Nations who
are members of "the coalition".

You mean your record of mass murder, surrender, and shame? You
cannot just forget it, you have to do something to make up for it.

That explains the discrimination against the Turks, etc. in Germany?

What does this have to do with neglecting genocides?

And:Which discrimination? Immigrants are granted double citizenship,
equal rights, equal education.

A problem is the integration, but thats based upon decisions made by
the affected - if you don´t want to integrate yourself (like learning
the language, as many turks of the first and second generation did).

In other words, if they do not speak the language they are sub-human,
my what nice folks you are.

You worried about Serbia only because it threatened
European interests.

In which aspect? The civil war blocked the land route to the EU member
Greece and the closed Danube, but what else besides threatened morale
and justice? Involving surrounding countries in the civil war?

The spread of a war is not uncommon in European history.

So, where are Europes interests affected=

That is exactly why we are careful about declaring and pushing towards
war. We see it everyday what war does to nations, people, cities and
even landscapes. We don´t want it.

You are cowards.

Man, your spreading buzzwords, but you aren´t argueing.

I am not worried about Serbia, I am worried about the radical
nationalists of any given group in the Balkans, no matter if they rant
for "Great Serbia", "Great Albania" or whatever.. the UCK isn´t any
better then the bosnian serbs and the mercenaries who fought along
them.

You are not worried about anything, after all, the US will come and
clean up your mess, as usual.

Again, How do you know what I am worried about? You love to simplify.

From your posts.

The moment we pull out of Bosnia, Sarajevo will be back to the times
of sniper alley and bloodbaths on market places. Do you (demanding
"PULL OUT THE US FORCES!") really want that?

We no longer care. If the EU wants to be anti-US, then they can
take care of their own problems.

If the USA wants to be isolationist, it may do it, but it will harm
itself and others.

And again, it is immorale. You don´t care if people suffer?

Not if they continually mock and deride us. The "good times" are over.
If you expect us to clean up your messes than you should at least
show us some respect.

Saddam killed more Muslims than Slobo did. Why wasn't that genocide?

Who says it wasn´t? If you consider the actions against Kurds, thats
genocide. And it is a shame that our society (you, us, everyone
dealing with that dicator in the 1980s) accepted it without taking
direct initiative.

And the Euroweinies did exactly what about it???

Nothing. Or as much as the USA.

Gee, that must be why Saddam is no longer in power and all of those
US Soldiers are in Iraq.


Arafat is waging genocidal war against the Jews (picking up where
Europe left off). Why haven't you intervened in the Middle East
against him?

Why haven´t the USA?

You do not get out much, do you? The US has been the strongest
supporter of Israel for the last 50 years.

Wrong. The USA/Israeli cooperation lasts only about 35 years. Until
about Rabins time as ambassador in Washington and until the Nixon
administration gained power Israel cooperated with Europe in terms of
weapons development and cooperation.

What have the USA done to intervene against Arafat, his Fatah or
Hamas? Nothing. Or as much as Europe.

What have the Israelis requested? We supply them with arms and
money (lots of money), Europe does nothing except sell arms to
the arabs.

Any the despicable Europeans have done what? Oh, yes, that is
right, they have done *nothing*. (Except of course, the Brits and the
Poles).

And Spain, and Czech Republic, and Denmark, and Italy, and... well,
even Germany. AWACS and the Fuchs in Kuwait.

Kuwait is not at war. We appreciate the European Countries that have
supported the US, the rest of you can go to hell.

Al Minyard

The world isn´t black and white. It´s shades of grey.

Gruss, Roman

Not as gray as you would like, we see who our friends are, and we
will take care of them, the French, Germans, etc can rot for all we
care.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard schrieb:

You did not learn anything from WWII except to call for the US to
defend you.

How do you know what I have learned?

From your postings

I am certain you didn´t. I haven´t expressed enough to state that
assumption.

So, please stop insulting people. It is neither friendly, nor
appropriate. Thank you.

We (those you mentioned) try to face our history and approach pardon
and respect.. other nations still neglect their record. Nations who
are members of "the coalition".

You mean your record of mass murder, surrender, and shame?

Me? Man, I am 26 years old and I know what happened. I am aware of it
as most Germans of my age are. We know those who suffered and we think
of the dead. We respect them. And we learn from those who survived to
tell us about horrors - to prevent and evade those horrors today.

If you would have ever talked to someone who lived through a
bombardment or through a POW camp or through a NS concentration camp,
through war and violence, you would be have as loud..

You
cannot just forget it, you have to do something to make up for it.

Like giving Israel three dolphin class subs for the price of one? No,
thats a nice deal, but it doesn´t make up mass murder. This has to be
done in direct contact, a thing that we practiced at schools. I have
friends in Israel as I have friends in Palestine...

That explains the discrimination against the Turks, etc. in Germany?

What does this have to do with neglecting genocides?

Great, no reply on the question. Very civilizes manner.

And:Which discrimination? Immigrants are granted double citizenship,
equal rights, equal education.

A problem is the integration, but thats based upon decisions made by
the affected - if you don´t want to integrate yourself (like learning
the language, as many turks of the first and second generation did).

In other words, if they do not speak the language they are sub-human,
my what nice folks you are.

Ah? Where did I write anything like this? Can you say "prejudice"?
Thats what you live of.

Our society is open for everyone who wants to participate in. If
people don´t want to do it, they stay within their folks and live
their lives.. What is the second biggest turkish citiy? Berlin. No
problem with it.

We don´t force people into integration, even if it means that society
pays for their living (welfare). On integration, we share the problem
the USA has with hispanic immigrants - they can rely on their folks
for a living and thus never fully integrate into society..

That is exactly why we are careful about declaring and pushing towards
war. We see it everyday what war does to nations, people, cities and
even landscapes. We don´t want it.

You are cowards.

Don´t tell me what I am.

Man, your spreading buzzwords, but you aren´t argueing.

See?

I am not worried about Serbia, I am worried about the radical
nationalists of any given group in the Balkans, no matter if they rant
for "Great Serbia", "Great Albania" or whatever.. the UCK isn´t any
better then the bosnian serbs and the mercenaries who fought along
them.

You are not worried about anything, after all, the US will come and
clean up your mess, as usual.

Weird. Just before you said I was worried about Serbia. Now what?

And again, it is immorale. You don´t care if people suffer?

Not if they continually mock and deride us. The "good times" are over.
If you expect us to clean up your messes than you should at least
show us some respect.

Where did the inhabitants of Bosnia or Kosovo "mock and deride" you?
They need _our_ help. Yours and ours.

And the Euroweinies did exactly what about it???

Nothing. Or as much as the USA.

Gee, that must be why Saddam is no longer in power and all of those
US Soldiers are in Iraq.

You don´t read arguments, do you?

You do not get out much, do you? The US has been the strongest
supporter of Israel for the last 50 years.

Wrong. The USA/Israeli cooperation lasts only about 35 years. Until
about Rabins time as ambassador in Washington and until the Nixon
administration gained power Israel cooperated with Europe in terms of
weapons development and cooperation.

No reply on it, again.

What have the Israelis requested? We supply them with arms and
money (lots of money), Europe does nothing except sell arms to
the arabs.

German Bundeswehr cooperates with IDF/Zahal (Navy, AF as much as I
know). We share technology (like the MTU license for the Merkava tank
engine) as we deal on a commercial base (like the Dolphin sub deal).
And Germany did give Israel money.

Any the despicable Europeans have done what? Oh, yes, that is
right, they have done *nothing*. (Except of course, the Brits and the
Poles).


And Spain, and Czech Republic, and Denmark, and Italy, and... well,
even Germany. AWACS and the Fuchs in Kuwait.

Kuwait is not at war.

But close to it. Iraq isn´t at war, either. Your big boss said it, but
his assistent secretary of defense just learned it the hard way. :-(

We appreciate the European Countries that have
supported the US, the rest of you can go to hell.

Ah, I love a discussion based on friendly manners.

Not as gray as you would like, we see who our friends are, and we
will take care of them, the French, Germans, etc can rot for all we
care.

I don´t want to be a friend of yours. I have many friends in the USA,
people with manners, knowledge (not prejudices or fixed ideas),
friendly people.

Al Minyard

Gruss, Roman

Roman J. Rohleder wrote:

Alan Minyard schrieb:

Gruss, Roman

Your kow-towing to Yizreal and to this ****-eating Jew is nothing
short of disgraceful. Time to tell these malevolent guilt-mongers to
FOAD.

Grantland

If you would have ever talked to someone who lived through a
bombardment or through a POW camp or through a NS concentration camp,
through war and violence, you would be have as loud..

I have been through war, and I did not like it. That does not mean that there
are not other things that are worse.

You
cannot just forget it, you have to do something to make up for it.

Like giving Israel three dolphin class subs for the price of one? No,
thats a nice deal, but it doesn´t make up mass murder. This has to be
done in direct contact, a thing that we practiced at schools. I have
friends in Israel as I have friends in Palestine...

That explains the discrimination against the Turks, etc. in Germany?

What does this have to do with neglecting genocides?

Great, no reply on the question. Very civilizes manner.


Our society is open for everyone who wants to participate in. If
people don´t want to do it, they stay within their folks and live
their lives.. What is the second biggest turkish citiy? Berlin. No
problem with it.

We don´t force people into integration, even if it means that society
pays for their living (welfare). On integration, we share the problem
the USA has with hispanic immigrants - they can rely on their folks
for a living and thus never fully integrate into society..

Most Hispanic immigrants are productive members of the middle/upper
income ranges.

That is exactly why we are careful about declaring and pushing towards
war. We see it everyday what war does to nations, people, cities and
even landscapes. We don´t want it.

You are cowards.

Don´t tell me what I am.

I was speaking of your country. I'll stand by that statement.

Man, your spreading buzzwords, but you aren´t argueing.

See?


Where did the inhabitants of Bosnia or Kosovo "mock and deride" you?
They need _our_ help. Yours and ours.

We have no interest in the area.

And the Euroweinies did exactly what about it???

Nothing. Or as much as the USA.

Gee, that must be why Saddam is no longer in power and all of those
US Soldiers are in Iraq.

You don´t read arguments, do you?

Yes, I do. You are a typical European who does not value liberty or
freedom because they have been the gifts of the US.

You do not get out much, do you? The US has been the strongest
supporter of Israel for the last 50 years.

Wrong. The USA/Israeli cooperation lasts only about 35 years. Until
about Rabins time as ambassador in Washington and until the Nixon
administration gained power Israel cooperated with Europe in terms of
weapons development and cooperation.

The French will sell weapons to anyone, the Germans did nothing.

No reply on it, again.

What have the Israelis requested? We supply them with arms and
money (lots of money), Europe does nothing except sell arms to
the arabs.

German Bundeswehr cooperates with IDF/Zahal (Navy, AF as much as I
know). We share technology (like the MTU license for the Merkava tank
engine) as we deal on a commercial base (like the Dolphin sub deal).
And Germany did give Israel money.

No, you sell tech (low tech, at that).

Any the despicable Europeans have done what? Oh, yes, that is
right, they have done *nothing*. (Except of course, the Brits and the
Poles).


And Spain, and Czech Republic, and Denmark, and Italy, and... well,
even Germany. AWACS and the Fuchs in Kuwait.

Kuwait is not at war.

But close to it. Iraq isn´t at war, either. Your big boss said it, but
his assistent secretary of defense just learned it the hard way. :-(

The War on Terrorism is alive and well, even if the Germans have
decided to hide their heads in the sand (as usual)

We appreciate the European Countries that have
supported the US, the rest of you can go to hell.

Ah, I love a discussion based on friendly manners.

Germany is not a friendly country.

Not as gray as you would like, we see who our friends are, and we
will take care of them, the French, Germans, etc can rot for all we
care.

Not to worry, I certainly would not want to be a "friend" of an enemy national.


Al Minyard

Why haven´t the USA?


You do not get out much, do you? The US has been the strongest
supporter of Israel for the last 50 years.


Hi

Israel owes its very existence to American money and weapons.

Cheers...Chris

Israel owes its very existence to American money and weapons.


Which explains our "popularity" among your average muslim.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"