Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in news:0b1f9eb2-37b7-4f0c-b4c0-
:

On Jan 15, 12:55*pm, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

There is no requirement for VFR pilots to visit an airport with an
instructor before they first fly to that airport. Likewise there is no
requirement for VFR pilots to purchase approach plates and enroute
charts for cross country airports.

Of course there "is no requirement...". No one said anything about
VFR pilots purchasing approach plates and teaching them IFR (perish the
mere thought!). Re-read my post. Where I trained (and where I now teach)
there are constantly people practicing instrument approaches and we
hear calls like "...N1234a is procedure turn inbound ILS23.." or
"N1234a is YUPPY inbound ILS 32..." Most students want to know what
that means. In any case it behooves an instructor to explain.. once
explained the student will no longer be ignorant and will ultimately
be a safer pilot when he's out soloing.

So do you disagree that the IFR pilot was wrong to use language that
other pilots may not understand? The IFR pilot would certainly be
foolish if he relied on all VFR pilots knowing the IFR waypoints and
approach fixes at each airport.


NOT WHAT HE SAID!

Sorry for shouting. Seemed appropriate for some reason.


Bertie

On Jan 15, 5:36*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in news:0b1f9eb2-37b7-4f0c-b4c0-
:





On Jan 15, 12:55*pm, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

There is no requirement for VFR pilots to visit an airport with an
instructor before they first fly to that airport. Likewise there is no
requirement for VFR pilots to purchase approach plates and enroute
charts for cross country airports.

Of course there "is no requirement...". No one said anything about
VFR pilots purchasing approach plates and teaching them IFR (perish the
mere thought!). Re-read my post. Where I trained (and where I now teach)
there are constantly people practicing instrument approaches and we
hear calls like "...N1234a is procedure turn inbound ILS23.." or
"N1234a is YUPPY inbound ILS 32..." Most students want to know what
that means. In any case it behooves an instructor to explain.. once
explained the student will no longer be ignorant and will ultimately
be a safer pilot when he's out soloing.

So do you disagree that the IFR pilot was wrong to use language that
other pilots may not understand? The IFR pilot would certainly be
foolish if he relied on all VFR pilots knowing the IFR waypoints and
approach fixes at each airport.

NOT WHAT HE SAID!

Sorry for shouting. Seemed appropriate for some reason.

That's why I posted that. I'm trying to clarify what he's saying. I'm
saying IFR pilots should use proper phrasing and he's coming back with
VFR pilots should know IFR waypoints. Its not clear if he believes his
suggestion is a "nice extra" or if he believes it really soves the
problem at hand.

-robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
:

On Jan 15, 5:36*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:0b1f9eb2-37b7-4f0c-b4c0-

:





On Jan 15, 12:55*pm, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

There is no requirement for VFR pilots to visit an airport with
an instructor before they first fly to that airport. Likewise
there is n
o
requirement for VFR pilots to purchase approach plates and
enroute charts for cross country airports.

Of course there "is no requirement...". No one said anything about
VFR pilots purchasing approach plates and teaching them IFR
(perish the

mere thought!). Re-read my post. Where I trained (and where I now
teach
)
there are constantly people practicing instrument approaches and
we hear calls like "...N1234a is procedure turn inbound ILS23.."
or "N1234a is YUPPY inbound ILS 32..." Most students want to know
what that means. In any case it behooves an instructor to
explain.. once explained the student will no longer be ignorant
and will ultimately be a safer pilot when he's out soloing.

So do you disagree that the IFR pilot was wrong to use language
that other pilots may not understand? The IFR pilot would certainly
be foolish if he relied on all VFR pilots knowing the IFR waypoints
and approach fixes at each airport.

NOT WHAT HE SAID!

Sorry for shouting. Seemed appropriate for some reason.

That's why I posted that. I'm trying to clarify what he's saying. I'm
saying IFR pilots should use proper phrasing and he's coming back with
VFR pilots should know IFR waypoints. Its not clear if he believes his
suggestion is a "nice extra" or if he believes it really soves the
problem at hand.

What I understoood him to say was that a vfr pilot should ahve a broad
view of the structure of insturment flight. e.g, where the outer marker
is in relation to the end of the runway. Where the center fix is. What
altitudes the approaching airplane is likely to be at on an ILS. Waht a
SID and STAR is. If they fly out of a busy airfiled, particulalry if
tehy were to do special VFR, it would behoove them to know roughly
what's going on.
Hel, If I were operating IMC in a strange place, I'd have no idea where
the other guy was if he called some strange waypoint, nor would I look
it up. But I'd have a vague idea, at least, what he was up to wheras a
VFR pilot would have next to none.
It's an important part of "keeping the big picture" and expanding one's
comfort zone.
And regular Bunyip readers will know me as a Luddite who never turns the
radio on unless he's forced!


Bertie

On Jan 15, 6:01*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote :





On Jan 15, 5:36*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:0b1f9eb2-37b7-4f0c-b4c0-

:

On Jan 15, 12:55*pm, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

There is no requirement for VFR pilots to visit an airport with
an instructor before they first fly to that airport. Likewise
there is n
o
requirement for VFR pilots to purchase approach plates and
enroute charts for cross country airports.

Of course there "is no requirement...". No one said anything about
VFR pilots purchasing approach plates and teaching them IFR
(perish the

mere thought!). Re-read my post. Where I trained (and where I now
teach
)
there are constantly people practicing instrument approaches and
we hear calls like "...N1234a is procedure turn inbound ILS23.."
or "N1234a is YUPPY inbound ILS 32..." Most students want to know
what that means. In any case it behooves an instructor to
explain.. once explained the student will no longer be ignorant
and will ultimately be a safer pilot when he's out soloing.

So do you disagree that the IFR pilot was wrong to use language
that other pilots may not understand? The IFR pilot would certainly
be foolish if he relied on all VFR pilots knowing the IFR waypoints
and approach fixes at each airport.

NOT WHAT HE SAID!

Sorry for shouting. Seemed appropriate for some reason.

That's why I posted that. I'm trying to clarify what he's saying. I'm
saying IFR pilots should use proper phrasing and he's coming back with
VFR pilots should know IFR waypoints. Its not clear if he believes his
suggestion is a "nice extra" or if he believes it really soves the
problem at hand.

What I understoood him to say was that a vfr pilot should ahve a broad
view of the structure of insturment flight. e.g, where the outer marker
is in relation to the end of the runway. Where the center fix is. What
altitudes the approaching airplane is likely to be at on an ILS. Waht a
SID and STAR is. If they fly out of a busy airfiled, particulalry if
tehy were to do special VFR, it would behoove them to know roughly
what's going on.
Hel, If I were operating IMC in a strange place, I'd have no idea where
the other guy was if he called some strange waypoint, nor would I look
it up. But I'd have a vague idea, at least, what he was up to wheras a
VFR pilot would have next to none.
It's an important part of "keeping the big picture" and expanding one's
comfort zone.
And regular Bunyip readers will know me as a Luddite who never turns the
radio on unless he's forced!

But would you expect a student pilot on a cross country to know what
it means if a IFR pilot calls up with "Cessna 1234 4 files from
FOOBAR"???

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
:

On Jan 15, 6:01*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote
innews:1c62ad07-2560-41fc-a01e-d
:





On Jan 15, 5:36*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:0b1f9eb2-37b7-4f0c-b4c0-

:

On Jan 15, 12:55*pm, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

There is no requirement for VFR pilots to visit an airport
with an instructor before they first fly to that airport.
Likewise there is n
o
requirement for VFR pilots to purchase approach plates and
enroute charts for cross country airports.

Of course there "is no requirement...". No one said anything
about VFR pilots purchasing approach plates and teaching them
IFR (perish the

mere thought!). Re-read my post. Where I trained (and where I
now teach
)
there are constantly people practicing instrument approaches
and we hear calls like "...N1234a is procedure turn inbound
ILS23.." or "N1234a is YUPPY inbound ILS 32..." Most students
want to know what that means. In any case it behooves an
instructor to explain.. once explained the student will no
longer be ignorant and will ultimately be a safer pilot when
he's out soloing.

So do you disagree that the IFR pilot was wrong to use language
that other pilots may not understand? The IFR pilot would
certainly be foolish if he relied on all VFR pilots knowing the
IFR waypoints and approach fixes at each airport.

NOT WHAT HE SAID!

Sorry for shouting. Seemed appropriate for some reason.

That's why I posted that. I'm trying to clarify what he's saying.
I'm saying IFR pilots should use proper phrasing and he's coming
back with VFR pilots should know IFR waypoints. Its not clear if he
believes his suggestion is a "nice extra" or if he believes it
really soves the problem at hand.

What I understoood him to say was that a vfr pilot should ahve a
broad view of the structure of insturment flight. e.g, where the
outer marker is in relation to the end of the runway. Where the
center fix is. What altitudes the approaching airplane is likely to
be at on an ILS. Waht a SID and STAR is. If they fly out of a busy
airfiled, particulalry if tehy were to do special VFR, it would
behoove them to know roughly what's going on.
Hel, If I were operating IMC in a strange place, I'd have no idea
where the other guy was if he called some strange waypoint, nor would
I look it up. But I'd have a vague idea, at least, what he was up to
wheras a VFR pilot would have next to none.
It's an important part of "keeping the big picture" and expanding
one's comfort zone.
And regular Bunyip readers will know me as a Luddite who never turns
the radio on unless he's forced!

But would you expect a student pilot on a cross country to know what
it means if a IFR pilot calls up with "Cessna 1234 4 files from
FOOBAR"???

Hell, I don't know what that means. You're a Smokey Stover fan?

Bertie

But I would expect that the student would have been taught to look around
him. If he's VFR then he should see and avoid. Just as NORDO traffic may
be in the area, so may traffic giving you references you don't know about.
Not to mention the fact that procedure turns and final approach fixes are
about 5 miles from the touchdown zone so by definition well outside the
pattern.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Jan 15, 6:01 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote
:





On Jan 15, 5:36 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:0b1f9eb2-37b7-4f0c-b4c0-

:

On Jan 15, 12:55 pm, kontiki wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:

There is no requirement for VFR pilots to visit an airport with
an instructor before they first fly to that airport. Likewise
there is n
o
requirement for VFR pilots to purchase approach plates and
enroute charts for cross country airports.

Of course there "is no requirement...". No one said anything about
VFR pilots purchasing approach plates and teaching them IFR
(perish the

mere thought!). Re-read my post. Where I trained (and where I now
teach
)
there are constantly people practicing instrument approaches and
we hear calls like "...N1234a is procedure turn inbound ILS23.."
or "N1234a is YUPPY inbound ILS 32..." Most students want to know
what that means. In any case it behooves an instructor to
explain.. once explained the student will no longer be ignorant
and will ultimately be a safer pilot when he's out soloing.

So do you disagree that the IFR pilot was wrong to use language
that other pilots may not understand? The IFR pilot would certainly
be foolish if he relied on all VFR pilots knowing the IFR waypoints
and approach fixes at each airport.

NOT WHAT HE SAID!

Sorry for shouting. Seemed appropriate for some reason.

That's why I posted that. I'm trying to clarify what he's saying. I'm
saying IFR pilots should use proper phrasing and he's coming back with
VFR pilots should know IFR waypoints. Its not clear if he believes his
suggestion is a "nice extra" or if he believes it really soves the
problem at hand.

What I understoood him to say was that a vfr pilot should ahve a broad
view of the structure of insturment flight. e.g, where the outer marker
is in relation to the end of the runway. Where the center fix is. What
altitudes the approaching airplane is likely to be at on an ILS. Waht a
SID and STAR is. If they fly out of a busy airfiled, particulalry if
tehy were to do special VFR, it would behoove them to know roughly
what's going on.
Hel, If I were operating IMC in a strange place, I'd have no idea where
the other guy was if he called some strange waypoint, nor would I look
it up. But I'd have a vague idea, at least, what he was up to wheras a
VFR pilot would have next to none.
It's an important part of "keeping the big picture" and expanding one's
comfort zone.
And regular Bunyip readers will know me as a Luddite who never turns the
radio on unless he's forced!

But would you expect a student pilot on a cross country to know what
it means if a IFR pilot calls up with "Cessna 1234 4 files from
FOOBAR"???

-Robert

On Jan 15, 7:50*pm, "John" wrote:
But I would expect that the student would have been taught to look around
him. *If he's VFR then he should see and avoid. *Just as NORDO traffic may
be in the area, so may traffic giving you references you don't know about.
Not to mention the fact that procedure turns and final approach fixes are
about 5 miles from the touchdown zone so by definition well outside the
pattern.

Agreed but the topic keeps changing. Yes, its nice to tell students
about some IFR waypoints in the area but it is clearly wrong for the
IFR pilot to use references that a VFR pilot would not be expected to
know. The purpose of announcement is to communicate, using lingo that
only a portion of pilots will know does not accomplish that.
I'm still confused if people disagree that the IFR pilot was in error
in this case or if they are just saying its a nice extra for VFR
pilots to know IFR points at some airports.

-Robert

The onus is on the IFR pilot to communicate in a way that is understandable
by everyone. VFR pilots should not have to take extraordinary actions in
order to understand a transmission.

Bob Gardner

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
On Jan 15, 7:50 pm, "John" wrote:
But I would expect that the student would have been taught to look around
him. If he's VFR then he should see and avoid. Just as NORDO traffic may
be in the area, so may traffic giving you references you don't know about.
Not to mention the fact that procedure turns and final approach fixes are
about 5 miles from the touchdown zone so by definition well outside the
pattern.

Agreed but the topic keeps changing. Yes, its nice to tell students
about some IFR waypoints in the area but it is clearly wrong for the
IFR pilot to use references that a VFR pilot would not be expected to
know. The purpose of announcement is to communicate, using lingo that
only a portion of pilots will know does not accomplish that.
I'm still confused if people disagree that the IFR pilot was in error
in this case or if they are just saying its a nice extra for VFR
pilots to know IFR points at some airports.

-Robert