Serious STOL fun

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in news:5929b616-fa26-4bd1-acde-baf81ddc4b29
@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

Hey, I found this on the same page, about a VW miracle engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4zSld30cmw&feature=related

It claims 211 HP out of a modified VW engine.

Very interesting.

If you buy that one, I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to th
e
ocean-front property in Arizona.
--
Jim in NC

It is possible to build VW engines that have much higher HP than that.
Some racing engines top 400, I think.


I wouldn't be surpised if you couldn't get more than that, even. Blown F1
engines based on engines almsot as simple ( the BMW M10, for instane) were
knocking on 1,000 HP thirty years ago.
Wouldnt like to fly behind one though!

Even a bit over a hundred has to be the limit for a reliable VW engine,
and
even then it's not going to be very torquey.



Bertie


This is the wrong NG to really attract a firestorm on this subject; however
I am really inclined to agree with you about the practical limit for a VW.
However, there is a major caveat--according to sources that I trust, ram air
will not provide enough cooling during climb for more than about half of
that. Therefore, in addition to the obvious of a PSRU, a high horsepower VW
would also require a relatively high pressure cooling fan and the attendant
machinery to regulate it. And that is still no guarantee of a successfull
outcome.

There is also a second point about automotive racing engines that is
frequently overlooked: I don't have any source of real numbers, but an
occasional few minutes of "standing by the fence and watching the cars pass
by" has convinced me that that road racing averages out to around 30 to 35%
of maximum horsepower--although some oval track racing on super speedways
should be a much higher percentage of power. In any case, the design life
expectancy (and reliability) of an engine for endurance road racing is
obviously far less than I would consider acceptable for flying--with the
obvious exception of air racing.

When you add it all up, a good conservative automotive conversion can save
money at the expense of performance; but a purpose designed aircraft engine
is still the least expensive source of reliable lightweight power. I am not
happy about that, and I keep looking, but around 70 to 75% of the power that
an engine developed for its original (factory warranteed) application still
looks like a practical limit.

Peter

"Peter Dohm" wrote in
:

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
news:5929b616-fa26-4bd1-acde-baf81ddc4b29
@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

Hey, I found this on the same page, about a VW miracle engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4zSld30cmw&feature=related

It claims 211 HP out of a modified VW engine.

Very interesting.

If you buy that one, I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next
to th
e
ocean-front property in Arizona.
--
Jim in NC

It is possible to build VW engines that have much higher HP than
that. Some racing engines top 400, I think.


I wouldn't be surpised if you couldn't get more than that, even.
Blown F1 engines based on engines almsot as simple ( the BMW M10, for
instane) were knocking on 1,000 HP thirty years ago.
Wouldnt like to fly behind one though!

Even a bit over a hundred has to be the limit for a reliable VW
engine, and
even then it's not going to be very torquey.



Bertie


This is the wrong NG to really attract a firestorm on this subject;
however I am really inclined to agree with you about the practical
limit for a VW. However, there is a major caveat--according to sources
that I trust, ram air will not provide enough cooling during climb for
more than about half of that. Therefore, in addition to the obvious
of a PSRU, a high horsepower VW would also require a relatively high
pressure cooling fan and the attendant machinery to regulate it. And
that is still no guarantee of a successfull outcome.

There is also a second point about automotive racing engines that is
frequently overlooked: I don't have any source of real numbers, but
an occasional few minutes of "standing by the fence and watching the
cars pass by" has convinced me that that road racing averages out to
around 30 to 35% of maximum horsepower--although some oval track
racing on super speedways should be a much higher percentage of power.
In any case, the design life expectancy (and reliability) of an
engine for endurance road racing is obviously far less than I would
consider acceptable for flying--with the obvious exception of air
racing.

When you add it all up, a good conservative automotive conversion can
save money at the expense of performance; but a purpose designed
aircraft engine is still the least expensive source of reliable
lightweight power. I am not happy about that, and I keep looking, but
around 70 to 75% of the power that an engine developed for its
original (factory warranteed) application still looks like a practical
limit.

Yeah, an automotive conversion really doesn;t appeal to me for a lot of
reasons. Some VW designs are realyl fun though! And breaths there a
pilot with a soul so dead as to not turn and look at a nice model A
poswered Piet?

Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
"Peter Dohm" wrote in
:

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
wrote in
news:5929b616-fa26-4bd1-acde-baf81ddc4b29
@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

Hey, I found this on the same page, about a VW miracle engine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4zSld30cmw&feature=related

It claims 211 HP out of a modified VW engine.

Very interesting.

If you buy that one, I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next
to th
e
ocean-front property in Arizona.
--
Jim in NC

It is possible to build VW engines that have much higher HP than
that. Some racing engines top 400, I think.


I wouldn't be surpised if you couldn't get more than that, even.
Blown F1 engines based on engines almsot as simple ( the BMW M10, for
instane) were knocking on 1,000 HP thirty years ago.
Wouldnt like to fly behind one though!

Even a bit over a hundred has to be the limit for a reliable VW
engine, and
even then it's not going to be very torquey.



Bertie


This is the wrong NG to really attract a firestorm on this subject;
however I am really inclined to agree with you about the practical
limit for a VW. However, there is a major caveat--according to sources
that I trust, ram air will not provide enough cooling during climb for
more than about half of that. Therefore, in addition to the obvious
of a PSRU, a high horsepower VW would also require a relatively high
pressure cooling fan and the attendant machinery to regulate it. And
that is still no guarantee of a successfull outcome.

There is also a second point about automotive racing engines that is
frequently overlooked: I don't have any source of real numbers, but
an occasional few minutes of "standing by the fence and watching the
cars pass by" has convinced me that that road racing averages out to
around 30 to 35% of maximum horsepower--although some oval track
racing on super speedways should be a much higher percentage of power.
In any case, the design life expectancy (and reliability) of an
engine for endurance road racing is obviously far less than I would
consider acceptable for flying--with the obvious exception of air
racing.

When you add it all up, a good conservative automotive conversion can
save money at the expense of performance; but a purpose designed
aircraft engine is still the least expensive source of reliable
lightweight power. I am not happy about that, and I keep looking, but
around 70 to 75% of the power that an engine developed for its
original (factory warranteed) application still looks like a practical
limit.

Yeah, an automotive conversion really doesn;t appeal to me for a lot of
reasons. Some VW designs are realyl fun though! And breaths there a
pilot with a soul so dead as to not turn and look at a nice model A
poswered Piet?

Bertie

Very true!

Peter

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote

Yeah, an automotive conversion really doesn;t appeal to me for a lot of
reasons.

Depends on the auto engine, to me. IF all of the other things like the
ignition, fuel system, cooling and prop speed reducer are done right on the
right engine, there are many auto engines that have not been babied in and
airplane and have done quite well, for 2000 hours plus. That's the gottcha;
all of the other stuff on the engine.

It helps if the engine has been raced in some class. The GM 4.3 and the
Ford 3.8 earned their wings in NASCAR, before they went back to the V-8's.

Some VW designs are realyl fun though!

Yes, but show me a standard VW head that does not melt down at more than an
honest 50 HP continuous, and I'll change my tune. I don't think I'll have
to buy a new songbook anytime soon! They just can not get rid of any more
waste heat than that.

And breaths there a pilot with a soul so dead as to not turn and look at a
nice model A
poswered Piet?

Yep, they sound and look really unique. They hark back to an earlier time
in history, and that "poppity pop" just can not be duplicated.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in
:



It helps if the engine has been raced in some class. The GM 4.3 and
the
Ford 3.8 earned their wings in NASCAR, before they went back to the
V-8's.

Some VW designs are realyl fun though!

Yes, but show me a standard VW head that does not melt down at more
than an honest 50 HP continuous, and I'll change my tune. I don't
think I'll have to buy a new songbook anytime soon! They just can not
get rid of any more waste heat than that.



Mmm.yeah, that sounds about right. I have to say, if I was going for a
Sonex, I think I'd go for a Rotax 912 in it rather than a VW

And breaths there a pilot with a soul so dead as to not turn and look
at a nice model A
poswered Piet?

Yep, they sound and look really unique. They hark back to an earlier
time in history, and that "poppity pop" just can not be duplicated.


They just look so cool.
That engine was actually certified at one point. I think the only
certified airplane with the model A was the Wiley Post. The Model B made
it into the early Funks and the V8 into a at least one certified
aircraft as well.



Bertie

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote

Yeah, an automotive conversion really doesn;t appeal to me for a lot of
reasons.

Depends on the auto engine, to me. IF all of the other things like the
ignition, fuel system, cooling and prop speed reducer are done right on
the right engine, there are many auto engines that have not been babied in
and airplane and have done quite well, for 2000 hours plus. That's the
gottcha; all of the other stuff on the engine.

It helps if the engine has been raced in some class. The GM 4.3 and the
Ford 3.8 earned their wings in NASCAR, before they went back to the V-8's.

Some VW designs are realyl fun though!

Yes, but show me a standard VW head that does not melt down at more than
an honest 50 HP continuous, and I'll change my tune. I don't think I'll
have to buy a new songbook anytime soon! They just can not get rid of any
more waste heat than that.

The VP-1, KR-1, and a number of others fly quite well on that--and flew well
enough on the earlier and smaller VWs as well.

And breaths there a pilot with a soul so dead as to not turn and look at
a nice model A
poswered Piet?

Yep, they sound and look really unique. They hark back to an earlier time
in history, and that "poppity pop" just can not be duplicated.
--
I have never personally seen nor heard one, but I'm still watching and
listening.

Peter

Yes, but show me a standard VW head that does not melt down at more than an
honest 50 HP continuous, and I'll change my tune. *I don't think I'll have
to buy a new songbook anytime soon! *They just can not get rid of any more
waste heat than that.
--
Jim in NC

Hoover write's about thrust being more important that HP. That jibes
with other stuff I've read.

The christmas engine blog sounds like he's doing all this direct
drive?

Can you really get max HP out of an automobile engine at lower RPMs
required for a prop not to spin too fast? Don't you pretty much have
to have a PSRU to match max auto engine HP to sub-sonic prop RPM?

Well, okay this should be asked over on homebuilts. Anyway the OP was
all about having fun in low n slow. I think these guys are
outrageously low n slow.

wrote

Hoover write's about thrust being more important that HP. That jibes
with other stuff I've read.

The christmas engine blog sounds like he's doing all this direct
drive?

Since HP (and therefore heat) is the limiting factor with VW, you can easily
hit the maximum thermal HP and still keep the engine at low prop RPM's. No
need to rev fast with a PSRU and be limited to part throttle to keep it
cool. It would just mean more weight to haul around.

Can you really get max HP out of an automobile engine at lower RPMs
required for a prop not to spin too fast? Don't you pretty much have
to have a PSRU to match max auto engine HP to sub-sonic prop RPM?

No, if you go direct drive with most auto engines, you are being satisfied
with lower HP levels than would be possible with a reduction unit. It still
would be a sizeable amount of HP, but less HP per pound than airplane
engines, since auto engine blocks are usually so massive.

You look at an engine torque and HP graph produced from a dyno, and where
the torque curve crosses the HP curve is usually close to the ideal speed to
run the engine for maximum power and thrust. At those RPM's at wide open
throttle, the HP per weight is in line with conventional airplane engines,
and probably a little better.

Many times, you will see people run a little lower RPM than that
intersection, for noise, fuel economy, and for engine longetivity.

Well, okay this should be asked over on homebuilts. Anyway the OP was
all about having fun in low n slow. I think these guys are
outrageously low n slow.

Yep. If you want to learn more, there are many people over there that know
their stuff, and still quite a few that are anti auto engine maniacs. Like
always, you sort through it and use what you can.
--
Jim in NC

Yeah, an automotive conversion really doesn;t appeal to me for a lot of
reasons. Some VW designs are realyl fun though! And breaths there a
pilot with a soul so dead as to not turn and look at a nice model A
poswered Piet?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are any number of modern industrial engines, some weighing less
than the Model A, that produce an honest 65 to 85 hp at 1800 to 2200
rpm.

-R.S.Hoover

Veeduber wrote in news:f2b41c11-2f54-4847-8e2c-
:


Yeah, an automotive conversion really doesn;t appeal to me for a lot of
reasons. Some VW designs are realyl fun though! And breaths there a
pilot with a soul so dead as to not turn and look at a nice model A
poswered Piet?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are any number of modern industrial engines, some weighing less
than the Model A, that produce an honest 65 to 85 hp at 1800 to 2200
rpm.


Really? Name a few?

Bertie