Boeing Awarded Contract For Next-Generation Harpoon Block III Missile

eatfastnoodle wrote:

:On Feb 2, 2:11*pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
: eatfastnoodle wrote:
:
: :On Feb 2, 2:24*am, Fred J. McCall wrote:: wrote:
:
: :
: : :See:
: : :
: : :http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Boei..._For_Next_Gene...
: : :
: : :How much longer will the Navy keep upgrading Harpoon before
: : :switching to a newer, possibly supersonic, weapon?
: : :
: :
: : This one seems to fall into the "if it works, don't **** with it"
: : category.
: :
: : What do you want a newer weapon to do that would work better than
: : what's already there and in the development plan?
: :
: :
: :F14/F15/F16/F18 certainly work, so why do we spend tens of billions of
: :dollars on F22/F35? Why not just buy newer upgraded version of Eagle
: :and Falcon? Cause the enemies aren't sitting still, what works today
: :might not work tomorrow, you must plan for the future.
: :
:
: I'll simply note you dodge the question.
:
: Let me ask again. *What do you want a newer weapon to do that would
: work better than what's already there and in the development plan?
:
: As for the aircraft you mention, we knew what new requirements we had
: (supercruise, stealth, improved maintenance rates, etc).
:
: So what do you want to add to Harpoon that isn't already in the
: roadmap?
:
: --
: "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
: *truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *-- Thomas Jefferson
:
:Supersonic speed is a good capability addition.
:

Why? What does it get you? The missile is already 20x faster than
what you're shooting it at.

Capability isn't free. If you want a supersonic anti-ship missile, it
has to be bigger (which means you can carry fewer of them), fly higher
(to escape reflections of its own shockwave from the surface), etc.

:
:Russians are selling
:supersonic anti-ship missiles to anybody willing to pay, investing in
:new missiles at least can help fending off Russian competition on the
:international arms export market.
:

You don't make sales by copying them. You make sales by having more
capable kit.

What about "supersonic speed" is worth the costs of adding it (in both
money and traded off capabilities)?


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw

Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
eatfastnoodle wrote:

:On Feb 2, 2:11 pm, Fred J. McCall wrote:
: eatfastnoodle wrote:
:
: :On Feb 2, 2:24 am, Fred J. McCall wrote:: wrote:
:
: :
: : :See:
: : :
: : :http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Boei..._For_Next_Gene...
: : :
: : :How much longer will the Navy keep upgrading Harpoon before
: : :switching to a newer, possibly supersonic, weapon?
: : :
: :
: : This one seems to fall into the "if it works, don't **** with it"
: : category.
: :
: : What do you want a newer weapon to do that would work better than
: : what's already there and in the development plan?
: :
: :
: :F14/F15/F16/F18 certainly work, so why do we spend tens of billions of
: :dollars on F22/F35? Why not just buy newer upgraded version of Eagle
: :and Falcon? Cause the enemies aren't sitting still, what works today
: :might not work tomorrow, you must plan for the future.
: :
:
: I'll simply note you dodge the question.
:
: Let me ask again. What do you want a newer weapon to do that would
: work better than what's already there and in the development plan?
:
: As for the aircraft you mention, we knew what new requirements we had
: (supercruise, stealth, improved maintenance rates, etc).
:
: So what do you want to add to Harpoon that isn't already in the
: roadmap?
:
: --
: "Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
: truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
: -- Thomas Jefferson
:
:Supersonic speed is a good capability addition.
:

Why? What does it get you? The missile is already 20x faster than
what you're shooting it at.

Capability isn't free. If you want a supersonic anti-ship missile, it
has to be bigger (which means you can carry fewer of them), fly higher
(to escape reflections of its own shockwave from the surface), etc.

As I understand, very high speed in ASuW missiles is conceived as
counter-measure against CIWS systems, on the basis of reducing the
available reaction time. Indeed there are easily quantifiable training &
elevating times of CIWS mounts and (with a bit of intelligence) time
needed for VLS missiles to get the interception course from the
straight-up course.

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

"dott.Piergiorgio" wrote:

:Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
:
: Why? What does it get you? The missile is already 20x faster than
: what you're shooting it at.
:
: Capability isn't free. If you want a supersonic anti-ship missile, it
: has to be bigger (which means you can carry fewer of them), fly higher
: (to escape reflections of its own shockwave from the surface), etc.
:
:
:As I understand, very high speed in ASuW missiles is conceived as
:counter-measure against CIWS systems, on the basis of reducing the
:available reaction time.
:

I know it's viewed that way, but does it really buy you anything? You
pick it up farther away (because it has to fly higher and is larger)
and you have many fewer missiles to use to try to overload a defensive
sector (again, because the missiles must be much larger).

And, of course, a larger, hotter missile is also easier to hit once
you detect it...


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:06:22 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

"dott.Piergiorgio" wrote:

:Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
:
: Why? What does it get you? The missile is already 20x faster than
: what you're shooting it at.
:
: Capability isn't free. If you want a supersonic anti-ship missile, it
: has to be bigger (which means you can carry fewer of them), fly higher
: (to escape reflections of its own shockwave from the surface), etc.
:
:
:As I understand, very high speed in ASuW missiles is conceived as
:counter-measure against CIWS systems, on the basis of reducing the
:available reaction time.
:

I know it's viewed that way, but does it really buy you anything? You
pick it up farther away (because it has to fly higher and is larger)
and you have many fewer missiles to use to try to overload a defensive
sector (again, because the missiles must be much larger).

And, of course, a larger, hotter missile is also easier to hit once
you detect it...

Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
current defenses.


Peter Skelton

In message , Peter Skelton
writes
Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
current defenses.

SAMs in surface mode can be pretty effective. During Preying Mantis, an
Iranian FAC fired a Harpoon at a USN surface action group (it missed or
was decoyed, opinions vary) and won half-a-dozen Standards and a Harpoon
in return. The Standards made such a mess of the Joshan that the Harpoon
didn't hit: the wreck was so low in the water that the Harpoon either
couldn't lock, or overflew.

Harpoon gets you range (~60-70 miles compared to the horizon) and a much
bigger warhead, but for the inshore battle there's a lot to be said for
the speed and selectivity of a semi-active SAM.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


pauldotjdotadam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

:In message , Peter Skelton
writes
:Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
:as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
:nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
:current defenses.
:
:SAMs in surface mode can be pretty effective. During Preying Mantis, an
:Iranian FAC fired a Harpoon at a USN surface action group (it missed or
:was decoyed, opinions vary) and won half-a-dozen Standards and a Harpoon
:in return. The Standards made such a mess of the Joshan that the Harpoon
:didn't hit: the wreck was so low in the water that the Harpoon either
:couldn't lock, or overflew.
:
:Harpoon gets you range (~60-70 miles compared to the horizon) and a much
:bigger warhead, but for the inshore battle there's a lot to be said for
:the speed and selectivity of a semi-active SAM.
:

If by "AA missiles" you're talking about SAMs (when I see "AA missile"
I think "air-to-air missile"), then I know what you're talking about.

Before Harpoon fielded there were ships out there with a system called
ISM. It was essentially a modified Standard Missile fired in an
anti-ship mode and was put out there to 'fill the gap' until Harpoon
was available.

There are, of course, trade offs in using a missile designed to attack
aircraft and other missiles to attack ships.


--
"Death is my gift." -- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer

Fred J. McCall wrote in
:

[snip]

Before Harpoon fielded there were ships out there with a system called
ISM. It was essentially a modified Standard Missile fired in an
anti-ship mode and was put out there to 'fill the gap' until Harpoon
was available.

There are, of course, trade offs in using a missile designed to attack
aircraft and other missiles to attack ships.

Didn't the Talos system have an ASuW mode of operation.
I vaguely recall reading something about that some years ago.
The part that would hit the target would probably mass something
like a ton and a half.

IBM

Peter Skelton wrote:

:On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:06:22 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
:
:"dott.Piergiorgio" wrote:
:
::Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
::
:: Why? What does it get you? The missile is already 20x faster than
:: what you're shooting it at.
::
:: Capability isn't free. If you want a supersonic anti-ship missile, it
:: has to be bigger (which means you can carry fewer of them), fly higher
:: (to escape reflections of its own shockwave from the surface), etc.
::
::
::As I understand, very high speed in ASuW missiles is conceived as
::counter-measure against CIWS systems, on the basis of reducing the
::available reaction time.
::
:
:I know it's viewed that way, but does it really buy you anything? You
:pick it up farther away (because it has to fly higher and is larger)
:and you have many fewer missiles to use to try to overload a defensive
:sector (again, because the missiles must be much larger).
:
:And, of course, a larger, hotter missile is also easier to hit once
:you detect it...
:
:Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
:as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
:nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
:current defenses.
:

I'm not sure what missiles you're talking about.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw

On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:53:26 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:

Peter Skelton wrote:

:On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:06:22 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
:
:"dott.Piergiorgio" wrote:
:
::Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
::
:: Why? What does it get you? The missile is already 20x faster than
:: what you're shooting it at.
::
:: Capability isn't free. If you want a supersonic anti-ship missile, it
:: has to be bigger (which means you can carry fewer of them), fly higher
:: (to escape reflections of its own shockwave from the surface), etc.
::
::
::As I understand, very high speed in ASuW missiles is conceived as
::counter-measure against CIWS systems, on the basis of reducing the
::available reaction time.
::
:
:I know it's viewed that way, but does it really buy you anything? You
:pick it up farther away (because it has to fly higher and is larger)
:and you have many fewer missiles to use to try to overload a defensive
:sector (again, because the missiles must be much larger).
:
:And, of course, a larger, hotter missile is also easier to hit once
:you detect it...
:
:Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
:as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
:nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
:current defenses.
:

I'm not sure what missiles you're talking about.

The standard family for certain, I'm not sure how much other kit
has been upgraded.


Peter Skelton

In message , Peter Skelton
writes
The standard family for certain, I'm not sure how much other kit
has been upgraded.

What's to upgrade? Inside horizon distance, a lot of SAMs have
demonstrable surface-to-surface modes. Sea Slug did, and Sea Dart still
does. (One excuse why the 42s don't have a SSM fit).

Going out over the horizon needs more changes, but is still feasible if
the need's there.

--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides


pauldotjdotadam[at]googlemail{dot}.com