Boeing Awarded Contract For Next-Generation Harpoon Block III Missile

Peter Skelton wrote:

:On Sun, 03 Feb 2008 08:53:26 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
:
:Peter Skelton wrote:
:
::On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:06:22 -0700, Fred J. McCall
wrote:
::
::"dott.Piergiorgio" wrote:
::
:::Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
:::
::: Why? What does it get you? The missile is already 20x faster than
::: what you're shooting it at.
:::
::: Capability isn't free. If you want a supersonic anti-ship missile, it
::: has to be bigger (which means you can carry fewer of them), fly higher
::: (to escape reflections of its own shockwave from the surface), etc.
:::
:::
:::As I understand, very high speed in ASuW missiles is conceived as
:::counter-measure against CIWS systems, on the basis of reducing the
:::available reaction time.
:::
::
::I know it's viewed that way, but does it really buy you anything? You
::pick it up farther away (because it has to fly higher and is larger)
::and you have many fewer missiles to use to try to overload a defensive
::sector (again, because the missiles must be much larger).
::
::And, of course, a larger, hotter missile is also easier to hit once
::you detect it...
::
::Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
::as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
::nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
::current defenses.
::
:
:I'm not sure what missiles you're talking about.
:
:The standard family for certain, I'm not sure how much other kit
:has been upgraded.
:

I don't believe they are nearly as long-ranged as Harpoon when they
are used in the anti-ship mode. One of the things you give up for
supersonic speed is range (you burn the fuel grain much faster) unless
you make them very, very large.


--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw

Peter Skelton ha scritto:

Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
current defenses.

If you recall, some months ago, I have strted a discussion about the
idea of a secondary AsuW missile battery (IIRC the original thread was
about the secondary (gun) battery) and IIRC there was consensus that
dual purpose AA missiles was the best solution, for the same reasons for
wchich DP guns was the best solution in WWII. And since 3T US AA
missiles has a secondary AsuW capability; the effectiveness was also
shown in the Saratoga-Muavenet incident.

For Mr. McCall: I'm thinking about your point; As you known, I'm a bit
competent in Naval cinematics and I'm making some speed vs. time
considerations in the spare time of this, let's say, family days (My
father came here for some days with me)

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

On Feb 3, 9:40 am, Peter Skelton wrote:
On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:06:22 -0700, Fred J. McCall



wrote:
"dott.Piergiorgio" wrote:

:Fred J. McCall ha scritto:
:
: Why? What does it get you? The missile is already 20x faster than
: what you're shooting it at.
:
: Capability isn't free. If you want a supersonic anti-ship missile, it
: has to be bigger (which means you can carry fewer of them), fly higher
: (to escape reflections of its own shockwave from the surface), etc.
:
:
:As I understand, very high speed in ASuW missiles is conceived as
:counter-measure against CIWS systems, on the basis of reducing the
:available reaction time.
:

I know it's viewed that way, but does it really buy you anything? You
pick it up farther away (because it has to fly higher and is larger)
and you have many fewer missiles to use to try to overload a defensive
sector (again, because the missiles must be much larger).

And, of course, a larger, hotter missile is also easier to hit once
you detect it...

Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
current defenses.

Peter Skelton

Raytheon ESSMs intercept Vandal, Harpoon in sea tests

RIM-162 Evolved SeaSparrow Missiles (ESSMs)-built by the Raytheon
Company-successfully intercepted a supersonic target and actual cruise
missiles for the first time during two recent at-sea tests.

On 27 March an ESSM-fired from the Navy's Self-Defense Test Ship
(SDTS), the former destroyer Decatur-intercepted a Harpoon antiship
cruise missile flying a low-altitude trajectory. The ESSM was launched
in the HAW (home all the way) guidance mode, and its warhead destroyed
the Harpoon after the ESSM's proximity fuze detected the target.

Earlier, on 6 March, an ESSM was launched against an MQM-8G ER Vandal
low-altitude supersonic target simulating an antiship cruise missile.
Upon detection the Vandal was assigned to the ESSM, which was fired
using inertial mid-course guidance. The missile acquired the target,
switched to terminal guidance, and intercepted the target. The
missile's proximity fuze detected the target and detonated the ESSM's
warhead.

"The primary reason for developing [the ESSM] ... is to defend against
the modern supersonic threats," said Gary Hagedon, ESSM program
director for Raytheon. "This test shows that the missile can intercept
this type of antiship target."

The ESSM-an advanced ship self-defense missile designed to protect
ships from antiship missiles that fly at low altitude and maneuver
during their terminal approach-is in low-rate initial production for
the U.S. Navy and nine of the 11 nations of the NATO SeaSparrow
Consortium.

The ESSM firings-carried out off the coast of southern California-were
the third and fourth successful tests of the ESSM since November 2001.
On 6 February an ESSM intercepted a maneuvering, low-altitude,
subsonic BQM-74E target. A firing on 25 January at the White Sands
Missile Range in New Mexico was the third test conducted to verify the
ESSM's compatibility with the Aegis Weapons System.

Jack Linthicum ha scritto:

Earlier, on 6 March, an ESSM was launched against an MQM-8G ER Vandal
low-altitude supersonic target simulating an antiship cruise missile.
Upon detection the Vandal was assigned to the ESSM, which was fired
using inertial mid-course guidance. The missile acquired the target,
switched to terminal guidance, and intercepted the target. The
missile's proximity fuze detected the target and detonated the ESSM's
warhead.

6 march of what year ? AFAICT the last Vandal (former Talon missiles)
was expended sometime in the 2004-5 timeframe...

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

On Feb 3, 1:49 pm, "dott.Piergiorgio"
wrote:
Jack Linthicum ha scritto:

Earlier, on 6 March, an ESSM was launched against an MQM-8G ER Vandal
low-altitude supersonic target simulating an antiship cruise missile.
Upon detection the Vandal was assigned to the ESSM, which was fired
using inertial mid-course guidance. The missile acquired the target,
switched to terminal guidance, and intercepted the target. The
missile's proximity fuze detected the target and detonated the ESSM's
warhead.

6 march of what year ? AFAICT the last Vandal (former Talon missiles)
was expended sometime in the 2004-5 timeframe...

Best regards from Italy,
Dott. Piergiorgio.

It's a 2002 article from Sea Power
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...05/ai_n9021027

Peter Skelton wrote in
:

[snip]

Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
current defenses.

And taking a hit from several hundred lbs of metal + 80 or
so lbs of blast/frag warhead at M3 has a quality all its own
so to speak.

Ian MacLure wrote:

:Peter Skelton wrote in
:
:
: [snip]
:
: Aren't the small, modified AA missles supersonic, small and about
: as long-ranged as harpoon? They've a much smaller punch -
: nothing's free, as you say, but they'd be likely to hit against
: current defenses.
:
: And taking a hit from several hundred lbs of metal + 80 or
: so lbs of blast/frag warhead at M3 has a quality all its own
: so to speak.
:

But high velocity is still not a good substitute for a large warhead.


--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."
-- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer