Why airplanes fly

Michael Ash wrote:

This is my point exactly. Real pilots *do* have trouble with sims, even
good pilots. But this ****** has decided I'm a bad pilot, and called me
such to my face (at least, the Usenet equivalent of it), despite this
fact. That is an insult, plain and simple, even when put in nice words.

I would respectfully offer an opposing opinion to this.

I've worked with Microsoft closely on their simulator program and have
not experienced any "difficulty" reported from real world pilots when
using the simulator. In fact, many pilots use it for practice instrument
and procedures work.
The idea that a real world pilot should be expected to experience
difficulty in the sim because of conflict between actual flying and sim
programming is in my opinion a false premise.
This should not be misconstrued into a context that postulates actual
similarities between using the simulator and flying an actual airplane,
as there are clearly defined differences primarily concerned with
control pressures.
It's interesting to note that the control pressure differences should
offer no problems for the pilot going from the actual airplane into the
sim, but could easily cause problems going the other way.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Feb 10, 8:25*am, Dudley Henriques wrote:

It's interesting to note that the control pressure differences should
offer no problems for the pilot going from the actual airplane into the
sim, but could easily cause problems going the other way.


I agree, I could fly the simulator easily and even land first time
straight on track it but I find the real thing much harder. I'm
guessing but the reduction in data input (to the model and to the
"pilot") coupled with the simplicity of the model makes it easier to
operate. I thought it did not simulate ground effects well either.

Cheers

WingFlaps wrote:
On Feb 10, 8:25 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:

It's interesting to note that the control pressure differences should
offer no problems for the pilot going from the actual airplane into the
sim, but could easily cause problems going the other way.


I agree, I could fly the simulator easily and even land first time
straight on track it but I find the real thing much harder. I'm
guessing but the reduction in data input (to the model and to the
"pilot") coupled with the simplicity of the model makes it easier to
operate. I thought it did not simulate ground effects well either.

Cheers


What happens is interesting, and involves the mental/physical process
acquired when learning to fly in the real airplane first before coming
into the simulator.
Although when using aircraft controls there most certainly is a vector
involved when applying them, the learning process in the actual airplane
involves a constantly changing control PRESSURE dynamic as the controls
are applied at various airspeeds. (one could consider the dynamic as a
function of slugs per/sq.in. load vs response on the surfaces if
inclined in that direction :-) (We're talking un-boosted controls here
of course :-)
Once you have become acclimated to control use in the actual airplane,
the pressure needed becomes second nature and an educated reflex as you
determine the desired pressure to achieve the desired result regardless
of the airspeed.
What's interesting in this equation is that the vector required
(direction plus length) of control use is not really an important factor
in the actual airplane after the direction needed has been learned.
Bringing this from the airplane into the simulator loses the pressure
factor but retains the vector learning curve.
The pilot coming into the sim moves the joystick using the right vector
in direction and uses a visual cue for result acquired from the monitor.
The only thing missing in the equation here is the pressure.
Going the other way, from the sim into the aircraft, the vector factor
is a known, but the pressure dynamic is missing.
It's the pressure in the changing energy dynamic that the sim pilot
moving into an airplane must learn.
This is why I always recommend that instructors encourage new student
pilots who use the simulator to NOT use it during the initial period of
dual instruction before solo. After that, the sim has uses that can be
beneficial in the flight training environment.



--
Dudley Henriques

This is why I always recommend that instructors encourage new student
pilots who use the simulator to NOT use it during the initial period of
dual instruction before solo. After that, the sim has uses that can be
beneficial in the flight training environment.

--
Dudley Henriques-

I think that's good advice because I had definitely picked up some
minor control input errors on landing from tweaking the joystick on
simulated landings. It wasn't hard to get rid of, but it was there and
it came from the sim. I tended to make small jerking pulls on the
control wheel (overcontrolling) when I should have held steady back
pressure.

That was usually just as the plane was settling down on the runway.

wrote:
This is why I always recommend that instructors encourage new student
pilots who use the simulator to NOT use it during the initial period of
dual instruction before solo. After that, the sim has uses that can be
beneficial in the flight training environment.

--
Dudley Henriques-

I think that's good advice because I had definitely picked up some
minor control input errors on landing from tweaking the joystick on
simulated landings. It wasn't hard to get rid of, but it was there and
it came from the sim. I tended to make small jerking pulls on the
control wheel (overcontrolling) when I should have held steady back
pressure.

That was usually just as the plane was settling down on the runway.

It's just the initial dual period before solo where I like the sim put
away for a new student. It avoids conflicts and saves valuable time on
the learning curve.
After the student learns in the actual airplane to think of control use
in terms of pressure rather than movement in a direction, and after
solo, I find no harm in going back to the sim for use as a training aid.


--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...

After the student learns in the actual airplane to think of control use in terms of pressure rather than movement in a
direction, and after solo, I find no harm in going back to the sim for use as a training aid.


--
Dudley Henriques


Speaking of pressure, is there some sort of yoke interface for PCs that includes force feedback? Something where the
controls stiffen with speed and out of trim conditions? Never seen anything like that on any I have messed with. There
was a really nice $100,000 set up at OSH with two projectors on a curved screen that was very realistic, but I don't
think it had force feed back either...

Blueskies wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...

After the student learns in the actual airplane to think of control
use in terms of pressure rather than movement in a direction, and
after solo, I find no harm in going back to the sim for use as a
training aid.


--
Dudley Henriques


Speaking of pressure, is there some sort of yoke interface for PCs that
includes force feedback? Something where the controls stiffen with speed
and out of trim conditions? Never seen anything like that on any I have
messed with. There was a really nice $100,000 set up at OSH with two
projectors on a curved screen that was very realistic, but I don't think
it had force feed back either...


Yes there is. I've experimented with it and found it useless if the
objective sought is realistic aircraft control pressure feedback.
What it does do is create some "effects" for the user that are intended
to produce a more realistic experience, but in my opinion, the
technology falls way short of this goal.

In fact, my opinion of force feedback is so negative, I personally don't
use it.

--
Dudley Henriques