Thielert (Diesel Engines)

Bertie the Bunyip writes:


There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy one
because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and decided
against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
@reader2.panix.com:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:


There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy one
because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and decided
against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?





This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this case,
when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...FADEC-0-a.html

Nice eh?


Bertie

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:


There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy one
because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and decided
against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?





This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this case,
when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...FADEC-0-a.html

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. I'm surprised it wasn't
required for certification in the first place since it appears to me
that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

Peter Clark wrote in
:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:


There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy
one because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and
decided against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?





This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up
front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this
case, when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...FADEC-0-a.html

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. I'm surprised it wasn't
required for certification in the first place since it appears to me
that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

There's lots of ways you can lose all electrics. Corrosion, lightning,
poor maintenance...
A manual reversion mode or at least a fail safe to a constant power
setting weould be a major improvement and the ony thing that would make
the engine a viable modern airplane engine in my view. I've flown single
ignition airplanes, but there is a world of difference between flying an
antique with low approahc speeds and a modern(ish) lightplane.


Bertie

On Feb 15, 6:46*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Peter Clark wrote :



On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy
one because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and
decided against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?

This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up
front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this
case, when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...FADEC-0-a.html

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. *I'm surprised it wasn't
required for certification in the first place since it appears to me
that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

There's lots of ways you can lose all electrics. Corrosion, lightning,
poor maintenance...

I agree. Isn't that a problem for electrical ignition systems? Limp
home should be excellent in a diesel...

Cheers

WingFlaps wrote in
:

On Feb 15, 6:46*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Peter Clark wrote
innews:qav8r3
:



On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip


wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't
buy one because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a
Cherokee and decided against it because of the lack of limp home
capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?

This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up
front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this
case, when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...ate-1-FADEC-0-
a.htm
l

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. *I'm surprised it
wasn't

required for certification in the first place since it appears to
me that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

There's lots of ways you can lose all electrics. Corrosion,
lightning, poor maintenance...

I agree. Isn't that a problem for electrical ignition systems?


Well, there are two mostly! Completely independent as well. Not the case
here. You can add backup batteries and what not, but they're still
connected to the same fadec.

Limp
home should be excellent in a diesel...

Should be, but in this engine it is non-existent. It's not diesels in
general I'm knocking. It's this engine only..



Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote x

Should be, but in this engine it is non-existent. It's not diesels in
general I'm knocking. It's this engine only..

Exactly.

Limp home, or better, should be a no brainer for a diesel.

The choice not to have that feature on this particular engine is, no doubt,
an economic decision. They felt that the need for it, determined by the
risk of failure, is not a large enough factor to necessitate the extra cost
of including this feature.

Perhaps they will survey possible buyers, or determine by some other
vehicle, that this is an important reason for potential customers to not buy
their package. Doubtful, but one can hope...

As to losing the electrical supply to the fadec, only a poor design and
implementation could result in a totally bulletproof and totally reliable
system. The backup circuit and battery should supply only the fadec, and
fuel pump; only the absolute minimum necessary systems needed to keep the
fan turning. A self test should check the ability of the backup circuit to
run these systems upon every start, and also if something changes during
flight that would prevent the backup from functioning.

Is that how it is now, with the only widely used diesel? No. It should not
be difficult or overly costly to build a system to function like that. I
guess we will have to wait for the experimental crowd to design such a
system. g
--
Jim in NC

Bertie,

Not the case
here. You can add backup batteries and what not, but they're still
connected to the same fadec.


There are two FADECs. Get yourself some factual information before
spouting your theories!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
Peter Clark wrote in
:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:


There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy
one because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and
decided against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?





This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up
front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this
case, when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...FADEC-0-a.html

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. I'm surprised it wasn't
required for certification in the first place since it appears to me
that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

There's lots of ways you can lose all electrics. Corrosion, lightning,
poor maintenance...
A manual reversion mode or at least a fail safe to a constant power
setting weould be a major improvement and the ony thing that would make
the engine a viable modern airplane engine in my view. I've flown single
ignition airplanes, but there is a world of difference between flying an
antique with low approahc speeds and a modern(ish) lightplane.


Bertie


This aircraft had 2 working alternators when the volts dropped and the
FADECs(4) quit. Had each engine shed the electrical load quick enough, this
would not have happened. Apparently it takes less than a 1/4 second of low
volts to "reboot".

Al G

"Al G" wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
Peter Clark wrote in
:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:


There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy
one because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and
decided against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?





This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up
front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this
case, when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...ate-1-FADEC-0-
a.html

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. I'm surprised it
wasn't required for certification in the first place since it
appears to me that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

There's lots of ways you can lose all electrics. Corrosion,
lightning, poor maintenance...
A manual reversion mode or at least a fail safe to a constant power
setting weould be a major improvement and the ony thing that would
make the engine a viable modern airplane engine in my view. I've
flown single ignition airplanes, but there is a world of difference
between flying an antique with low approahc speeds and a modern(ish)
lightplane.


Bertie


This aircraft had 2 working alternators when the volts dropped and
the
FADECs(4) quit. Had each engine shed the electrical load quick enough,
this would not have happened. Apparently it takes less than a 1/4
second of low volts to "reboot".

The strange part of all this is it seems to me to be a relatively easy
problem to fix. OK, it probably means a different FADEC, but so what?


Bertie