Thielert (Diesel Engines)

Peter Clark wrote in
:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:


There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy
one because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and
decided against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?





This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up
front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this
case, when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...FADEC-0-a.html

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. I'm surprised it wasn't
required for certification in the first place since it appears to me
that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

There's lots of ways you can lose all electrics. Corrosion, lightning,
poor maintenance...
A manual reversion mode or at least a fail safe to a constant power
setting weould be a major improvement and the ony thing that would make
the engine a viable modern airplane engine in my view. I've flown single
ignition airplanes, but there is a world of difference between flying an
antique with low approahc speeds and a modern(ish) lightplane.


Bertie

On Feb 15, 6:46*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Peter Clark wrote :



On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't buy
one because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a Cherokee and
decided against it because of the lack of limp home capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?

This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up
front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this
case, when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...FADEC-0-a.html

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. *I'm surprised it wasn't
required for certification in the first place since it appears to me
that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

There's lots of ways you can lose all electrics. Corrosion, lightning,
poor maintenance...

I agree. Isn't that a problem for electrical ignition systems? Limp
home should be excellent in a diesel...

Cheers

WingFlaps wrote in
:

On Feb 15, 6:46*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Peter Clark wrote
innews:qav8r3
:



On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:24:52 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip


wrote:

David Lesher wrote in news:fp1t8e$8vr$4
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

There's nothing made up about "No sparks, no power" I wouldn't
buy one because of this. My club was looking at one ofr a
Cherokee and decided against it because of the lack of limp home
capability.

What kind of sparks does a Diesel need?

This ine has a FADEC. No electricity and you have a big weight up
front.

Worse, in the twin star installation, both engines are tied to an
electrical system that can punch out both at the same time. in this
case, when the gear was retracted...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...ate-1-FADEC-0-
a.htm
l

Nice eh?

To be fair, there was an immediate AD requiring a backup battery
systtem to power the FADECs after that event. *I'm surprised it
wasn't

required for certification in the first place since it appears to
me that it was a forseeable failure mode, but still.

There's lots of ways you can lose all electrics. Corrosion,
lightning, poor maintenance...

I agree. Isn't that a problem for electrical ignition systems?


Well, there are two mostly! Completely independent as well. Not the case
here. You can add backup batteries and what not, but they're still
connected to the same fadec.

Limp
home should be excellent in a diesel...

Should be, but in this engine it is non-existent. It's not diesels in
general I'm knocking. It's this engine only..



Bertie

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote x

Should be, but in this engine it is non-existent. It's not diesels in
general I'm knocking. It's this engine only..

Exactly.

Limp home, or better, should be a no brainer for a diesel.

The choice not to have that feature on this particular engine is, no doubt,
an economic decision. They felt that the need for it, determined by the
risk of failure, is not a large enough factor to necessitate the extra cost
of including this feature.

Perhaps they will survey possible buyers, or determine by some other
vehicle, that this is an important reason for potential customers to not buy
their package. Doubtful, but one can hope...

As to losing the electrical supply to the fadec, only a poor design and
implementation could result in a totally bulletproof and totally reliable
system. The backup circuit and battery should supply only the fadec, and
fuel pump; only the absolute minimum necessary systems needed to keep the
fan turning. A self test should check the ability of the backup circuit to
run these systems upon every start, and also if something changes during
flight that would prevent the backup from functioning.

Is that how it is now, with the only widely used diesel? No. It should not
be difficult or overly costly to build a system to function like that. I
guess we will have to wait for the experimental crowd to design such a
system. g
--
Jim in NC

Morgans,

The choice not to have that feature on this particular engine is, no doubt,
an economic decision.


No, no and no again. This is not the diesel Americans are used to from their
boats and trucks. Modern car diesel engines require electronic control. Google
common rail.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Morgans,

The choice not to have that feature on this particular engine is, no
doubt,
an economic decision.


No, no and no again. This is not the diesel Americans are used to from
their
boats and trucks. Modern car diesel engines require electronic control.
Google
common rail.

I agree with Bertie., as to what you can go do to yourself.

You are a pinhead, that thinks all Americans are ignorant, I guess. So go
fyourself.

I am quite familiar with modern electronic control on diesel engines. Could
there have been an option to shut down the automatic injection, and go to a
backup manual fuel control that lets the engine run at say, 80% ?

You bet your ass, there could have been an option like that included. Why
is it not included? Money. Economics. Period.

Do I have to make that any clearer to you, since you are a European? Let me
know if I have to simplify it for you.

Not very nice to have someone talk down to you like this, is it?

You should try not doing it to us, if you don't want it thrown back in your
face.
--
Jim in NC

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 11:09:16 +0100, Thomas Borchert wrote:

This is not the diesel Americans are used to from their boats and
trucks.

What about the French? The SMA engine has a mechanical reversion when
the ECU drops offline (for whatever reason). They call it a diesel
engine, but perhaps they need a little education that it cannot be such
if it can operate sans FADEC.

And you can say what you want about the French, but anyone that comes up
with the idea of soaking bread in egg before cooking has to be doing
something right laugh.

- Andrew

Andrew,

They call it a diesel
engine, but perhaps they need a little education that it cannot be such
if it can operate sans FADEC.

Don't think I ever said something to that effect.

The SMA is indeed an "old-style" diesel. It is also not quite a resounding
success in the market.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Bertie,

Not the case
here. You can add backup batteries and what not, but they're still
connected to the same fadec.


There are two FADECs. Get yourself some factual information before
spouting your theories!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert wrote in
:

Bertie,

Not the case
here. You can add backup batteries and what not, but they're still
connected to the same fadec.


There are two FADECs. Get yourself some factual information before
spouting your theories!


It;'s not a theory and you know it.Both fadecs electric, are they?



Bertie