Stalls??

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Almost all fears are born of ignorance.

Eh? I thought the line went "Ignorance is bliss," not "Ignornace is fear?"

Or that if you are in a bad situation and aren't afraid, you're probably
ignorant of what's going on?

Or is it "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself?"

All these trite statements can't be right, can they?

Recently, Big John posted:

No one learns to fly by feel any more and haven't for years.

I must have been one of the lucky ones that got "old school" training. My
first few lessons had the entire instrument panel covered except for the
tach. Then, one instrument at a time was uncovered as the lessons
progressed, with the focus being on what it indicated vs. what it looked
like outside the window.

Some of my BFRs have been interesting. ;-)

Neil

On Feb 16, 8:46 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

Instructors who teach stall "feel" are still out here, but you have to
spend some time finding the right ones.
When you find a CFI who tapes up the ASI and pulls the circuit breaker
on the stall warning horn to teach you to "feel" the airplane...GRAB
THEM, you've found the right one :-))

I have hear a few different people on this ng say things like this.
And yet if you fly by feel in an incursion into IMC, it kills (or can
kill) non instrument rated pilots. Am I missing a step here? Do you
have to learn by feel before you can learn by instrument?

This question comes to you from the "A little knowledge is dangerous"
trite statement...

-SPCT

On Feb 17, 9:05*am, wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:46 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Instructors who teach stall "feel" are still out here, but you have to
spend some time finding the right ones.
When you find a CFI who tapes up the ASI and pulls the circuit breaker
on the stall warning horn to teach you to "feel" the airplane...GRAB
THEM, you've found the right one :-))

I have hear a few different people on this ng say things like this.
And yet if you fly by feel in an incursion into IMC, it kills (or can
kill) non instrument rated pilots. *Am I missing a step here? *Do you
have to learn by feel before you can learn by instrument?

Good question. Dudley's talking about flying in visual conditions.
Then, a pilot should be looking out the window as much as possible, in
part to see and avoid other aircraft. So it's good to be able to
perceive as much as possible without reference to the instruments
(even though some use of instruments, as a crosscheck for airspeed
etc., is ordinarily advisable even in visual flight; aviation is all
about redundancy).

But in instrument conditions, when you can't see anything out the
window, you can't keep the plane upright for long without using the
instruments. But even in those conditions, it's possible to perceive
such things as coordinated vs. uncoordinated flight, or the onset of a
stall, just by the feel of the plane. And it's good to be able to do
so, for the sake of redundancy, even though the instruments should be
giving you that information too.

wrote:
On Feb 16, 8:46 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Instructors who teach stall "feel" are still out here, but you have to
spend some time finding the right ones.
When you find a CFI who tapes up the ASI and pulls the circuit breaker
on the stall warning horn to teach you to "feel" the airplane...GRAB
THEM, you've found the right one :-))

I have hear a few different people on this ng say things like this.
And yet if you fly by feel in an incursion into IMC, it kills (or can
kill) non instrument rated pilots. Am I missing a step here? Do you
have to learn by feel before you can learn by instrument?

This question comes to you from the "A little knowledge is dangerous"
trite statement...

-SPCT

Yes. You are missing something, and it's vitally important you
understand it....and understand it completely.

Instrument flying is a totally separate issue from the way one learns to
fly an airplane during initial training. They are integrated in certain
ways. In other ways the two are entirely separate.

We are discussing here the initial process of learning to fly, NOT
flying in instrument conditions.

VFR is one thing IFR is quite another.

When an instructor discusses "flying by feel", they are in no way
advocating the non-use of instruments and warning sensors available to
the pilot in the aircraft. They are simply reducing the available
"tools" the pilot relies on to a lower level to help the pilot
understand his/her flight evironment more closely without the aid of
artificial help.

In the IFR scenario, an instructor will do the same thing when they
reduce a pilot to flying on the primary panel only.

Don't think of flying VFR and IFR in the same breath. This attitude can
get a pilot into deep trouble down the line.

When you start talking instruments, you're in a whole new ball game when
it comes to cues. Everything changes. There are no more visual cues.
There is no more "feeling" of the airplane. There are ONLY the instruments.

It's a whole different flying world. You learn to fly by "feel" to
better understand the aerodynamics and how the airplane interfaces in
it's environment. Visual cues are part of this equation.
Once these things are learned, you TRANSITION into a whole new world
where instruments replace these cues. Don't EVER, as long as you fly,
get these two worlds mixed up in your mind. Doing that will kill you in
an airplane faster than you can imagine!


--
Dudley Henriques

Recently, posted:

On Feb 16, 8:46 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

Instructors who teach stall "feel" are still out here, but you have
to spend some time finding the right ones.
When you find a CFI who tapes up the ASI and pulls the circuit
breaker on the stall warning horn to teach you to "feel" the
airplane...GRAB THEM, you've found the right one :-))

I have hear a few different people on this ng say things like this.
And yet if you fly by feel in an incursion into IMC, it kills (or can
kill) non instrument rated pilots. Am I missing a step here? Do you
have to learn by feel before you can learn by instrument?

In the case of my training, by the time I soloed, use of the instruments
was well understood. I had other "fortunate" experiences before I soloed,
such as having a vacuum pump failure. I didn't even notice it until the AI
was pretty far out of whack with the outside picture. If you're paying
attention to what's going on outside, I don't think it's all that easy to
inadvertently fly into IMC.

Neil

In article ,
"Neil Gould" wrote:

If you're paying
attention to what's going on outside, I don't think it's all that easy to
inadvertently fly into IMC.

At night, it's a little harder to avoid IMC than during the day.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

Recently, Bob Noel posted:

In article ,
"Neil Gould" wrote:

If you're paying
attention to what's going on outside, I don't think it's all that
easy to inadvertently fly into IMC.

At night, it's a little harder to avoid IMC than during the day.

And, even harder over open water at night. But, all that means to me is
that one has to be more vigilant during those times to pick up on clues
that something is changing.

Neil

On Feb 16, 4:26 pm, WingFlaps wrote:

I think a still warning device is very useful for a pilot who is
preoccupied with other tasks. A question, will a typical air pressure
stall warning always sound off at the same AOA regardless of speed
you are flying at? (I know really fast planes use a vane device to
measure it directly).

The stall warning device on a lightplane is an indirect AOA
detection device. AOA is directly related to the stagnation point, and
as AOA increases the stagnation point moves farther back under the
leading edge. When it gets just under the vane, or just under the
suction slot, the warning will sound. Airspeed doesn't figure into it.
Try slow flight someday (at altitude) when the air is rough from
thermal activity, and listen to it beep intemittently due to updrafts
even though the airspeed is constant.

Dan

On Feb 18, 8:17*am, wrote:
On Feb 16, 4:26 pm, WingFlaps wrote:

I think a still warning device is very useful for a pilot who is
preoccupied with other tasks. A question, will a typical air pressure
stall warning *always sound off at the same AOA regardless of speed
you are flying at? (I know really fast planes use a vane device to
measure it directly).

* * * *The stall warning device on a lightplane is an indirect AOA
detection device. AOA is directly related to the stagnation point, and
as AOA increases the stagnation point moves farther back under the
leading edge. When it gets just under the vane, or just under the
suction slot, the warning will sound. Airspeed doesn't figure into it.
Try slow flight someday (at altitude) when the air is rough from
thermal activity, and listen to it beep intemittently due to updrafts
even though the airspeed is constant.


Thanks,

I know how it works, but I was unsure if the stagnation point is
always in the same position at all airspeeds for a given AOA. You seem
to be saying it is -right? Your thermal test doesn't answer the
question because the AOA is not constant.

Cheers