EU as joke (modified)

Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

"Ralph Savelsberg" wrote in message
...


The stereotype would be that Americans think that 'if you're not with
us, you're against us'.


Isn't that almost exactly what George W. said -- or is
my memory failing?


That's pretty much what he said after september eleventh. I cringed when
I heard it, but then again, the man has said a lot of strange things,
which often were reinterpreted by his aides with words like "That's not
what the president said." or "What the president meant to say was .....".
In any case, dumb rhetoric is part of almost every politician's
vocabulary and after all, the US had been viciously attacked. I think
it's generally not all that hard to see through the rhetoric. The sad
thing is that some people apparently can't.


But I agree that Al Minkukel is a fool by any standard.


He's a strong supporter of his government's position and I don't blame him for that, even though I have grave doubts about that position.

However, what tends to annoy me immensely is his generalizing talk about `Europeans are this, Europeans are that', his lack of

distinction between facts and his own opinion and his apparent inability to seperate his feelings about some European countries'

political positions from his opinion about Europeans, European society, and things made in Europe in general.


There's a Dutch proverb that seems rather apropriate to this discussion:
"holle vaten klinken het hardst". According to my dictionary the English
equivalent would be "The empty vessel makes the greatest sound".


BTW, I'm not a fan of Jacques Chirac either, and I think that France's
and (to a lesser extent) Germany's positions in this haven't exactly
been constructive either. The French announcement that they were going
to block any new security counsel resolution against Iraq in the month
before the war was utterly counterproductive. I also think that now that
Iraq has been invaded it's in the world's best interest to see to it
that the US indeed doesn't fail to pacify Iraq.

Regards,
Ralph Savelsberg

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:16:38 +0100, Ralph Savelsberg wrote:



Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

"Ralph Savelsberg" wrote in message
...


The stereotype would be that Americans think that 'if you're not with
us, you're against us'.


Isn't that almost exactly what George W. said -- or is
my memory failing?


That's pretty much what he said after september eleventh. I cringed when
I heard it, but then again, the man has said a lot of strange things,
which often were reinterpreted by his aides with words like "That's not
what the president said." or "What the president meant to say was .....".
In any case, dumb rhetoric is part of almost every politician's
vocabulary and after all, the US had been viciously attacked. I think
it's generally not all that hard to see through the rhetoric. The sad
thing is that some people apparently can't.


But I agree that Al Minkukel is a fool by any standard.


He's a strong supporter of his government's position and I don't blame him for that, even though I have grave doubts about that position.

However, what tends to annoy me immensely is his generalizing talk about `Europeans are this, Europeans are that', his lack of

distinction between facts and his own opinion and his apparent inability to seperate his feelings about some European countries'

political positions from his opinion about Europeans, European society, and things made in Europe in general.


There's a Dutch proverb that seems rather apropriate to this discussion:
"holle vaten klinken het hardst". According to my dictionary the English
equivalent would be "The empty vessel makes the greatest sound".


BTW, I'm not a fan of Jacques Chirac either, and I think that France's
and (to a lesser extent) Germany's positions in this haven't exactly
been constructive either. The French announcement that they were going
to block any new security counsel resolution against Iraq in the month
before the war was utterly counterproductive. I also think that now that
Iraq has been invaded it's in the world's best interest to see to it
that the US indeed doesn't fail to pacify Iraq.

Regards,
Ralph Savelsberg

In order to clarify my remarks, when I say "europe" I mean "old europe"
France, Germany Belgium, The Netherlands, Greece, Italy, etc. I do not
include the UK, Poland or the other former east block countries.

Al Minyard

Alan Minyard wrote:

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:16:38 +0100, Ralph Savelsberg wrote:



Emmanuel Gustin wrote:


"Ralph Savelsberg" wrote in message
...



The stereotype would be that Americans think that 'if you're not with
us, you're against us'.


Isn't that almost exactly what George W. said -- or is
my memory failing?


That's pretty much what he said after september eleventh. I cringed when
I heard it, but then again, the man has said a lot of strange things,
which often were reinterpreted by his aides with words like "That's not
what the president said." or "What the president meant to say was .....".
In any case, dumb rhetoric is part of almost every politician's
vocabulary and after all, the US had been viciously attacked. I think
it's generally not all that hard to see through the rhetoric. The sad
thing is that some people apparently can't.



But I agree that Al Minkukel is a fool by any standard.



He's a strong supporter of his government's position and I don't blame him for that, even though I have grave doubts about that position.

However, what tends to annoy me immensely is his generalizing talk about `Europeans are this, Europeans are that', his lack of

distinction between facts and his own opinion and his apparent inability to seperate his feelings about some European countries'

political positions from his opinion about Europeans, European society, and things made in Europe in general.



In order to clarify my remarks, when I say "europe" I mean "old europe"
France, Germany Belgium, The Netherlands, Greece, Italy, etc. I do not
include the UK, Poland or the other former east block countries.

Al Minyard

That doesn't change anything and furthermore seems rather arbitrary.

You're still generalising and the Italian and Dutch governments actually

supported the US invasion of Iraq.





Further discussion obviously serves no point, since you're not
interested in discussion.
You call me misinformed, but as it turns out you yourself are hard
pressed to come up with anything other than cliches and things that are
blatently wrong (I'm referring to our discussion on the Dutch military).

It must be really comforting to be able to shut down your capability for
thought and instead simply follow the rhetoric.

Ralph Savelsberg

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...

In order to clarify my remarks, when I say "europe" I mean "old europe"
France, Germany Belgium, The Netherlands, Greece, Italy, etc. I do not
include the UK, Poland or the other former east block countries.

Hmm.. Italy came into existence post-1848 and Germany isn't much older-
just how are they "old Europe" when the older nations of Europe are not
included in this classification? You do realise that Italy supported the US
action in Iraq don't you? YOU do also realise that it is only the British
*government* , not the British people who supported the war in Iraq?

You seem consumed by either hate, prejudice or jealousy Minyard. I did get a
kick out of your assertion that "Americans aren't colonists (thieves)"
comment a while back which proves that Americans CAN do irony after all.

Anyway, have a pleasant rant, catch you later on down the trail.

"tw" writes:
You seem consumed by either hate, prejudice or jealousy Minyard. I did get a
kick out of your assertion that "Americans aren't colonists (thieves)"
comment a while back which proves that Americans CAN do irony after all.

It probably wasn't irony though, just ignorance.

/Tomas