French planes are crap

"Chad Irby" wrote in message
. com...
In article ,
"killfile" wrote:

The Republic of Korea Air Force seem to think that the Rafale is
superior to
the F-15 and F-16, as well as the Su-35 and Eurofighter.

Considering that they're comparing the Rafale to 30 year old designs
that are in the midst of being phased out in the US, that's hardly
shocking.

The clearest thing is that nothing is superior to the *price* of the
F-22
... I'll certainly bet the six Rafales or Eurofighters you could get the
price of one F-22 against that lone F-22 in combat.

You misspelled "two" as "six."

The Eurofighter is going for $80 to $85 million each (that's what the
Brits are paying).

The F-22 is pushing $170 million each (that's the worst-case cost if we
only buy 70 of them - the price drops dramatically if we buy more, and
could have been as low as $90 million a pop with full-rate production).

No, your F-22 price is very far off.

These are _full program_ costs, not just for the aircraft themselves.

No, you failed to amortize the costs of the F-22.

So for much less capability, the Eurofighter costs about half as much
money. The Rafale is in the same price range, so there's no savings on
that one either.

No, not even close.

Don't compare airframe costs (no parts, no training, no support) in
Europe to full program costs in the US (parts, training, support).

You are kidding yourself, Irby.

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:57:25 -0000, "killfile"
wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"

wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

The partnership agreements concern technology transfer and workshare on
the
development of the production article. No money has yet transferred hands
for any production aircraft, and NO ORDERS have been made yet. The Bush
administration is even studying canceling the thing in favour of an
expanded
Block-60 F-16 purchase and UCAV's - not ouside the bounds of reality,
considering how big the budget defecit has become during the 'war on
terror'.

Get your facts straight.

Matt

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

So what you're saying is ... there's no export sales.

You are, in fact, admitting you were wrong. Amazing.

Matt

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:57:54 +0100, Skysurfer wrote:

Mike wrote :

The F-22 would kill all of them before they knew it was there.

bla bla bla

My, what a thoughtful response.

Remember me when the Crotale french SAM and Shahine saudi SAM detected
the F117 during the 1st gulf war ...

What are you smoking? The F-117 was not detected, and there is no
evidence that it ever has been. If Saddam's french SAMs had
"detected" the F-117 they would have fired unless you mean french
manned Crotales, in which case they never detected the F-117
either.

Al Minyard

I think he's aiming at the fact that the F-117 is detectable on survailance
radar, but not trackable for missile guidence ... apart from the brief
period where it's belly doors are open, when it has the radar signiture of a
greyhound bus.

Matt

Alan Minyard wrote :

Remember me when the Crotale french SAM and Shahine saudi SAM
detected the F117 during the 1st gulf war ...

What are you smoking? The F-117 was not detected, and there is no
evidence that it ever has been. If Saddam's french SAMs had
"detected" the F-117 they would have fired unless you mean french
manned Crotales, in which case they never detected the F-117
either.

I'm not talking about the irakis but the french and the saudis !
Irak don't and didn't have Crotale.

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"killfile" wrote:
How is one F/A-22 going to kill six Rafales?
By calling on his two wingmen, of course.

Unless the Rafales are selling for less than $30 million each, of course.

Are these in French service or exported? Very different accounting
systems used (one of the reasons people joke about "Shock Horror News
From France - GIAT Makes Profit!")

Parts, support, and training included.

Hey, how much do you get for the cost of a F-22? Not much in terms of
maintenance, crew training, or flying hours... you get the aircraft and
the rest is all extra, same as the competition.

Irby is misrepresenting the airframe costs either way. The $170 million a
copy F-22 price is for 336 pieces. For 70 pieces the F-22 will be over $300
million a copy. That of course assumes the program woks out their problems
during FY2004, otherwise there will be only about a dozen production copys
ever.

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
...


Not strictly true. This is the current favourite for the job, but it has
not been set in stone yet (and knowing British politics it won't be for a
while)

Quite true, I meant (and thought I said) that the UK is "planning"
on the F-35, not that any purchases had been made. Overseas
sales are nice, although there are very few countries that could
operate and maintain the F-35, the UK obviously has that
ability. In addition, there are very few countries that could be
trusted with the technology, again, no problem with the UK.

Al Minyard

I'll now do something that nobody else on RAM seems to do - apologise!

I'd misread what you had entered.

What are you smoking? The F-117 was not detected, and there is no
evidence that it ever has been. If Saddam's french SAMs had
"detected" the F-117 they would have fired unless you mean french
manned Crotales, in which case they never detected the F-117
either.

What about the one in Yugoslavia?

tadaa wrote :

What about the one in Yugoslavia?

Al
It didn't happen.
That's propaganda.
/Al

In article ,
"Tarver Engineering" wrote:

No, your F-22 price is very far off.

No, you failed to amortize the costs of the F-22.

No, not even close.

You are kidding yourself, Irby.

Note the complete lack of actual information in the above replies...

It's like the "Argument Sketch" from Monty Python.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In article ,
"Tarver Engineering" wrote:

Irby is misrepresenting the airframe costs either way. The $170 million a
copy F-22 price is for 336 pieces.

Nope. For 336 pieces, the price would be $90 million each. At the
current buy rate, it's $170 million.

For 70 pieces the F-22 will be over $300
million a copy.

Nope. Look it up for once.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.