The Angry White Man

On Feb 25, 4:17 pm, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:
On Feb 25, 3:41 pm, " wrote:



On Feb 25, 2:42 pm, Jeff Dougherty
It doesn't even have to be emotion, either- when you're leading a
country, the economic is just one of the dimensions you have to
contend with. Take the U.S. and Japan in the years just before WWII:
Japan imported much more from the U.S. than she exported, and from a
strictly economic point of view the best thing might have been to let
Japan's campaign of conquest in Asia go on. Most of the things Japan
was importing were manufactured goods as opposed to raw materials,
with the exception of a few things like bauxite that weren't really
present in the territories under attack anyway, so absent any U.S.
interference it's likely that trade deficit would have increased, if
anything, to feed Japan's war effort. From a strict making-money
point of view, the thing to do would be to let Japan grab what it
could- but the political consequence would have been accepting
Japanese hegemony in Eastern Asia, which was unacceptable to the U.S.
There are more things on heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in
economics texts.

-JTD

Wait a second ...

This ahistorical drivel needs to be corrected, and fast.

WW2 wasn't simply a clash of Empire.

Despite the best efforts of various revisionsists, the reality was
that WW2 pitted various democracies (in spite of all the imperfections
of each) against totalitarian regimes that posited racial superiority
as validation of their claims.

snip

I think we may be in violent agreement here. :-)

The point I was trying to make was that wars happen for many, many
reasons, and that national leaders have to consider many, many
different dimensions when they're making decisions. Reducing the
entire thing to economics, as the poster I was initially replying to
did, is a dangerous oversimplification. All I was doing with that
part of my post is illustrating my point by looking at *one* of the
other dimensions that led to war between the U.S. and the Japanese
Empire in the Pacific. I did not mean to suggest that there weren't
any others, or that politics alone could explain the war any more than
economics could, or that the Pacific War was a "clash of Empire".
(For one thing, it's a bit hard to have a "clash of Empire" when one
party is in the process of giving up its empire in the area, as the
U.S. was doing at the time WWII kicked off.) There are a lot of other
dimensions that I could have picked, and many more if I wanted to look
at the Japanese decision to attack the U.S. I was just making a point
about the causes of war in general, and the dangers of looking at one
particular factor as the end all and be all.

As a side note, I would agree with you that anyone who says the U.S.
and Japan were ideologically equivalent at the time simply hasn't done
the reading.

-JTD

OK, thanks for the clarification.

My WW2 reading was buttressed by my Father's experience (DEs and Subs
in the Pacific).

Dan

On Feb 25, 5:01 pm, " wrote:
On Feb 25, 4:17 pm, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:



On Feb 25, 3:41 pm, " wrote:

On Feb 25, 2:42 pm, Jeff Dougherty
It doesn't even have to be emotion, either- when you're leading a
country, the economic is just one of the dimensions you have to
contend with. Take the U.S. and Japan in the years just before WWII:
Japan imported much more from the U.S. than she exported, and from a
strictly economic point of view the best thing might have been to let
Japan's campaign of conquest in Asia go on. Most of the things Japan
was importing were manufactured goods as opposed to raw materials,
with the exception of a few things like bauxite that weren't really
present in the territories under attack anyway, so absent any U.S.
interference it's likely that trade deficit would have increased, if
anything, to feed Japan's war effort. From a strict making-money
point of view, the thing to do would be to let Japan grab what it
could- but the political consequence would have been accepting
Japanese hegemony in Eastern Asia, which was unacceptable to the U.S.
There are more things on heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in
economics texts.

-JTD

Wait a second ...

This ahistorical drivel needs to be corrected, and fast.

WW2 wasn't simply a clash of Empire.

Despite the best efforts of various revisionsists, the reality was
that WW2 pitted various democracies (in spite of all the imperfections
of each) against totalitarian regimes that posited racial superiority
as validation of their claims.

snip

I think we may be in violent agreement here. :-)

The point I was trying to make was that wars happen for many, many
reasons, and that national leaders have to consider many, many
different dimensions when they're making decisions. Reducing the
entire thing to economics, as the poster I was initially replying to
did, is a dangerous oversimplification. All I was doing with that
part of my post is illustrating my point by looking at *one* of the
other dimensions that led to war between the U.S. and the Japanese
Empire in the Pacific. I did not mean to suggest that there weren't
any others, or that politics alone could explain the war any more than
economics could, or that the Pacific War was a "clash of Empire".
(For one thing, it's a bit hard to have a "clash of Empire" when one
party is in the process of giving up its empire in the area, as the
U.S. was doing at the time WWII kicked off.) There are a lot of other
dimensions that I could have picked, and many more if I wanted to look
at the Japanese decision to attack the U.S. I was just making a point
about the causes of war in general, and the dangers of looking at one
particular factor as the end all and be all.

As a side note, I would agree with you that anyone who says the U.S.
and Japan were ideologically equivalent at the time simply hasn't done
the reading.

-JTD

OK, thanks for the clarification.

My WW2 reading was buttressed by my Father's experience (DEs and Subs
in the Pacific).

Hats off to him, then. You don't hear nearly enough about what a
crucial difference the "Silent Service" made during the war years.
Have you read Blair's _Silent Victory_? It's probably the best single
history of U.S. sub operations in the Pacific during WWII, and if you
haven't it's well worth the read. Just got reprinted a few years
back, so you can even get a copy without promising someone your
firstborn son.

-JTD

On Feb 25, 5:19 pm, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:

My WW2 reading was buttressed by my Father's experience (DEs and Subs
in the Pacific).

Hats off to him, then. You don't hear nearly enough about what a
crucial difference the "Silent Service" made during the war years.
Have you read Blair's _Silent Victory_? It's probably the best single
history of U.S. sub operations in the Pacific during WWII, and if you
haven't it's well worth the read. Just got reprinted a few years
back, so you can even get a copy without promising someone your
firstborn son.

-JTD

No, though I should.

I don't even know which ships he served on -- he had the names
tattooed on his forearms (before everybody had tattoos). He died
before the "greatest generation" started talking.

As one of them said, "Now they won't shut up!"

:-)

Though if you're familar with Band of brothers, you know about Dick
Winters.

he came and spoke to an OCS Class I taught -- talk about a humble guy.
One of the candidates asked him to recount his single-handed capture
of a German Battalion...

"Well, they were scared and tired too..."

Different age, then.


Dan

On Feb 25, 5:27 pm, " wrote:
On Feb 25, 5:19 pm, Jeff Dougherty
wrote:

My WW2 reading was buttressed by my Father's experience (DEs and Subs
in the Pacific).

Hats off to him, then. You don't hear nearly enough about what a
crucial difference the "Silent Service" made during the war years.
Have you read Blair's _Silent Victory_? It's probably the best single
history of U.S. sub operations in the Pacific during WWII, and if you
haven't it's well worth the read. Just got reprinted a few years
back, so you can even get a copy without promising someone your
firstborn son.

-JTD

No, though I should.

I don't even know which ships he served on -- he had the names
tattooed on his forearms (before everybody had tattoos). He died
before the "greatest generation" started talking.

It's long, but well worth the time spent. Some newer books do better
at specific aspects of the sub war, but thirty years on Blair's is
still the best single overview. One of the *good* aspects about the
resurgence of interest in the "Greatest Generation" is that they
finally reprinted the blessed thing- when my Dad and I started looking
at sub history you could spend months on the used book trade, and pay
$60 for the total set. Now it's $30 on Amazon...

Though if you're familar with Band of brothers, you know about Dick
Winters.

he came and spoke to an OCS Class I taught -- talk about a humble guy.
One of the candidates asked him to recount his single-handed capture
of a German Battalion...

"Well, they were scared and tired too..."

Different age, then.

Have to look that story up...

-JTD

Dan