The Differences Between PPLicensing And Learning

In rec.aviation.student WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:29:35 -0600, Michael Ash wrote:

I am asking the group for assistance in developing a list of instructional
and solo experiences, testing, mandatory reading.....if you ran the FAA,
what would you require in a near-perfect world that a PPL would require? I
am a zero-hour wannabe pilot FYI

Outlandings and assembly/disassembly. The PTS covers both in extremely
light detail. I would like to see much greater detail applied to both. In
particular, I had never assembled or disassembled a glider, aside from
helping to hold up wingtips and such, until after my checkride. I think
every student should be taken to the point where he can be the lead on
assembly or disassembly, at least for one particular type. He should also
be able to walk through an outlanding from start to finish, including
dealing with locals and police and handling the retrieve crew.

Of course this is pretty glider-specific. The equivalent for "normal"
flying would, I imagine, be how to travel with a plane, how to deal with
courtesy cars and arrange transportation at the destination and so forth,
which I've seen talked about here as lamentably un-discussed during
training.

lol

I am told this is "glider-boy" downspeak.

I can assure you that it is no such thing. I merely related some things
which I thought were lacking in my training, and compared them to
deficiencies I'd seen talked about in here.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 11:10:07 -0600, Michael Ash wrote:

Outlandings and assembly/disassembly. The PTS covers both in extremely
light detail. I would like to see much greater detail applied to both. In
particular, I had never assembled or disassembled a glider, aside from
helping to hold up wingtips and such, until after my checkride. I think
every student should be taken to the point where he can be the lead on
assembly or disassembly, at least for one particular type. He should also
be able to walk through an outlanding from start to finish, including
dealing with locals and police and handling the retrieve crew.

Of course this is pretty glider-specific. The equivalent for "normal"
flying would, I imagine, be how to travel with a plane, how to deal with
courtesy cars and arrange transportation at the destination and so forth,
which I've seen talked about here as lamentably un-discussed during
training.

lol

I am told this is "glider-boy" downspeak.

I can assure you that it is no such thing. I merely related some things
which I thought were lacking in my training, and compared them to
deficiencies I'd seen talked about in here.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Maybe I misunderstood. You are relating the advanced disassembly of a
glider with post flight travel arrangements of motorized aircraft as
comparable deficiencies in training?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

In rec.aviation.student WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 11:10:07 -0600, Michael Ash wrote:

Outlandings and assembly/disassembly. The PTS covers both in extremely
light detail. I would like to see much greater detail applied to both. In
particular, I had never assembled or disassembled a glider, aside from
helping to hold up wingtips and such, until after my checkride. I think
every student should be taken to the point where he can be the lead on
assembly or disassembly, at least for one particular type. He should also
be able to walk through an outlanding from start to finish, including
dealing with locals and police and handling the retrieve crew.

Of course this is pretty glider-specific. The equivalent for "normal"
flying would, I imagine, be how to travel with a plane, how to deal with
courtesy cars and arrange transportation at the destination and so forth,
which I've seen talked about here as lamentably un-discussed during
training.

lol

I am told this is "glider-boy" downspeak.

I can assure you that it is no such thing. I merely related some things
which I thought were lacking in my training, and compared them to
deficiencies I'd seen talked about in here.

Maybe I misunderstood. You are relating the advanced disassembly of a
glider with post flight travel arrangements of motorized aircraft as
comparable deficiencies in training?

Sounds like you are unfamiliar with glider assembly/disassembly. There is
nothing "advanced" about it. It's something that all glider pilots are
allowed to do and all should be able to do. On the average day when my
club operates with good soaring conditions, there are several gliders
assembled in the morning and disassembled in the afternoon after the day's
flying is done. The average glider takes two or three people 15-20 minutes
to assemble or disassemble.

And yes, I am comparing it to the non-flying portions of traveling using a
powered aircraft. If you feel the comparison is not apt, perhaps you could
elaborate.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:32:07 -0600, Michael Ash wrote:

Maybe I misunderstood. You are relating the advanced disassembly of a
glider with post flight travel arrangements of motorized aircraft as
comparable deficiencies in training?

Sounds like you are unfamiliar with glider assembly/disassembly. There is
nothing "advanced" about it. It's something that all glider pilots are
allowed to do and all should be able to do. On the average day when my
club operates with good soaring conditions, there are several gliders
assembled in the morning and disassembled in the afternoon after the day's
flying is done. The average glider takes two or three people 15-20 minutes
to assemble or disassemble.

Never done one, seen it done only.

And yes, I am comparing it to the non-flying portions of traveling using a
powered aircraft. If you feel the comparison is not apt, perhaps you could
elaborate.

You said:

Of course this is pretty glider-specific. The equivalent for "normal"
flying would, I imagine, be how to travel with a plane, how to deal with
courtesy cars and arrange transportation at the destination and so forth,
which I've seen talked about here as lamentably un-discussed during
training.

I don't see the comparisons between a manual task that requires physical,
hands-on work and picking up a telephone or using a computer. Relative to
capabilities, the glider would be world's different than the travel
arrangements for me. Others, maybe you, if you were stunted socially, I can
see the latter being more difficult. I am stunted mechanically.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

In rec.aviation.student WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:32:07 -0600, Michael Ash wrote:

Maybe I misunderstood. You are relating the advanced disassembly of a
glider with post flight travel arrangements of motorized aircraft as
comparable deficiencies in training?

Sounds like you are unfamiliar with glider assembly/disassembly. There is
nothing "advanced" about it. It's something that all glider pilots are
allowed to do and all should be able to do. On the average day when my
club operates with good soaring conditions, there are several gliders
assembled in the morning and disassembled in the afternoon after the day's
flying is done. The average glider takes two or three people 15-20 minutes
to assemble or disassemble.

Never done one, seen it done only.

Just out of curiosity, what did you see which made you term it as
"advanced"? Certainly I've seen difficult assemblies. There's a big
difference between a couple of experienced people assembling a single
seater for the Nth time and a group trying to assemble a heavy two-seater
which might get this treatment twice a year. Maybe you just got "lucky"
and saw a painful one.

And yes, I am comparing it to the non-flying portions of traveling using a
powered aircraft. If you feel the comparison is not apt, perhaps you could
elaborate.

You said:

Of course this is pretty glider-specific. The equivalent for "normal"
flying would, I imagine, be how to travel with a plane, how to deal with
courtesy cars and arrange transportation at the destination and so forth,
which I've seen talked about here as lamentably un-discussed during
training.

I don't see the comparisons between a manual task that requires physical,
hands-on work and picking up a telephone or using a computer. Relative to
capabilities, the glider would be world's different than the travel
arrangements for me. Others, maybe you, if you were stunted socially, I can
see the latter being more difficult. I am stunted mechanically.

The comparison isn't on what you actually do, it's on how it relates to
your training. Both are highly "practical" knowledge which don't relate
directly to flying. Technically speaking you don't need to know how to
assemble or disassemble a glider to fly one (although the PTS does require
a small bit of knowledge here), just like you don't need to know how to
deal with the logistics at the destination when travelling in an airplane
to fly one. But in both cases, you'll have a tough time doing too much
with your certificate without this knowledge.

In case I didn't explain myself too clearly, here's a post made to this
group a couple of months ago by one of the instructors talking about this
sort of logistical knowledge, and lamenting that it isn't generally
covered during training:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...48afef1266fbff

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:45:05 -0600, Michael Ash wrote:

Sounds like you are unfamiliar with glider assembly/disassembly. There is
nothing "advanced" about it. It's something that all glider pilots are
allowed to do and all should be able to do. On the average day when my
club operates with good soaring conditions, there are several gliders
assembled in the morning and disassembled in the afternoon after the day's
flying is done. The average glider takes two or three people 15-20 minutes
to assemble or disassemble.

Never done one, seen it done only.

Just out of curiosity, what did you see which made you term it as
"advanced"? Certainly I've seen difficult assemblies. There's a big
difference between a couple of experienced people assembling a single
seater for the Nth time and a group trying to assemble a heavy two-seater
which might get this treatment twice a year. Maybe you just got "lucky"
and saw a painful one.

lol I went looking for videos of ass/disass and found nothing advanced
about them. Relative, I did see a guy putting tape on a unmanned glider,
which to me, is advanced.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:45:05 -0600, Michael Ash wrote:

I don't see the comparisons between a manual task that requires physical,
hands-on work and picking up a telephone or using a computer. Relative to
capabilities, the glider would be world's different than the travel
arrangements for me. Others, maybe you, if you were stunted socially, I can
see the latter being more difficult. I am stunted mechanically.

The comparison isn't on what you actually do, it's on how it relates to
your training. Both are highly "practical" knowledge which don't relate
directly to flying. Technically speaking you don't need to know how to
assemble or disassemble a glider to fly one (although the PTS does require
a small bit of knowledge here), just like you don't need to know how to
deal with the logistics at the destination when travelling in an airplane
to fly one. But in both cases, you'll have a tough time doing too much
with your certificate without this knowledge.

In case I didn't explain myself too clearly, here's a post made to this
group a couple of months ago by one of the instructors talking about this
sort of logistical knowledge, and lamenting that it isn't generally
covered during training:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...48afef1266fbff

NOW it comes clear, good link to set me straight on with you.

I particularly felt kinship with:

"This is one of the funny things about flight training. Here is
something every pilot needs to know, but it is not in the PTS and most
instructors don't cover it. You get your certificate and they turn you
loose and you have absolutely no concept of how to turn flying into a
practical tool. And then people wonder why so many pilots quit flying
right after they get their certificate."

Another line item entry in a lengthening list of "The Differences Between
PPLicensing And Learning"

I travel frequently (one reason I am learning to fly) and planning ahead is
not only 2nd nature, my wife does it.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

In rec.aviation.student WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:45:05 -0600, Michael Ash wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...48afef1266fbff

NOW it comes clear, good link to set me straight on with you.

Good, I'm glad that made sense. It's much better when it's explained by
someone who knows what he's talking about.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Mar 1, 2:42*am, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
"This is one of the funny things about flight training. Here is
something every pilot needs to know, but it is not in the PTS and most
instructors don't cover it. You get your certificate and they turn you
loose and you have absolutely no concept of how to turn flying into a
practical tool. And then people wonder why so many pilots quit flying
right after they get their certificate."

Another line item entry in a lengthening list of "The Differences Between
PPLicensing And Learning"

Instead of thinking about it as a list, I suggest you consider this
systematically. There is a connection between all the things you will
need to know, but probably won't learn. Once you understand the
connection, you should be able to find the holes in your training.
Here it is:

If it's not something an airline pilot NEEDS to know, then you
probably won't learn it - even if the flying you do requires it. The
reason is simple. Most flight schools are geared to training future
airline pilots. Most flight instructors come out of this training,
and with no other flight experience at all, begin to teach students.
There are a few exceptions, but not many.

Airline pilots don't need to learn about making arrangements for
fueling and storing the plane, getting transportation to the hotel,
organizing maintenance or making simple field repairs, evaluating the
suitability of various airports for various operations, developing (as
opposed to following) procedures and checklists, organizing the
necessary transition and recurrent training, determining what
equipment is necessary for a given operation, and a whole host of
other things. There is an entire organizational structure for that.
Now this is not to say that an airline pilot will not know these
things - he might, and some must (the people who develop procedures
and recurrent training curricula, for example, come frome the pilot
ranks) - but an airline pilot can go through his entire career and
retire as the captain of a 7x7 without ever learning these things, and
do just fine. Thus you won't learn these things if you don't make an
effort to seek them out.

Michael

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 02:42:21 -0500, WJRFlyBoy
wrote:

snip fro brevity

"This is one of the funny things about flight training. Here is
something every pilot needs to know, but it is not in the PTS and most
instructors don't cover it. You get your certificate and they turn you
loose and you have absolutely no concept of how to turn flying into a
practical tool. And then people wonder why so many pilots quit flying
right after they get their certificate."

I've never looked at it this way. My cross country, long cross
country and visiting controlled airports taught me how to flight plan,
fly long distances, and into strange airports of the different
classes. Checking the AFD, calling ahead to check for fuel, ground
transportation, fees, and security now days just came natural.

Another line item entry in a lengthening list of "The Differences Between
PPLicensing And Learning"

I travel frequently (one reason I am learning to fly) and planning ahead is
not only 2nd nature, my wife does it.

These are the reasons "I think" made traveling in the airplane so
natural for me. Shortly after getting my PPL I was making trips to
Georgia, Florida, Colorado and points in between. Traveling up to
several days just didn't seem like any big thing. To me it's no
different that a long trip in a car as far as preperation except it's
a lot more fun and relaxing. I will admit weather had caused me to
make a couple of trips exceptions to that statement.

However I will add (which I've said before) my ground school was a
very thorough 4 Credit hour college course. That course was offered
every term and it was always full. OTOH had all of them received
their pilot's license no airport around here would have any parking
space left for cars.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com