Wow

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Much snippage...

technique. I have a frined who flies the 777 and he tells me it flies
just like an airplane.

Ok, I'll bite. What airplanes don't fly like airplanes?

Jim Stewart wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Much snippage...

technique. I have a frined who flies the 777 and he tells me it flies
just like an airplane.

Ok, I'll bite. What airplanes don't fly like airplanes?



Well, some of the older airliners had some interesting and challenging
quirks. They were not very speed stable on approach, wallowed around like a
milk van and could develop rates of descent on approach that could plant
you in seconds if you weren;'t careful. Then there's the FBW Airbusses.
Every time I talk to one of those guys I walk away more confused about how
the flight controls work than I was before. Others, most of the 4 engine
contraptions, for instance, have to be landed wings level. The nmost recent
crop handle quite nicely, don't have spool up times stretching towards ten
seconds and just generaly are pleasant to handle. The satisfaction in
handling the older jets came mostly from tricking them into doing what you
wanted them to!


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote in
:


Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Much snippage...


technique. I have a frined who flies the 777 and he tells me it flies
just like an airplane.

Ok, I'll bite. What airplanes don't fly like airplanes?




Well, some of the older airliners had some interesting and challenging
quirks. They were not very speed stable on approach, wallowed around like a
milk van and could develop rates of descent on approach that could plant
you in seconds if you weren;'t careful. Then there's the FBW Airbusses.
Every time I talk to one of those guys I walk away more confused about how
the flight controls work than I was before. Others, most of the 4 engine
contraptions, for instance, have to be landed wings level. The nmost recent
crop handle quite nicely, don't have spool up times stretching towards ten
seconds and just generaly are pleasant to handle. The satisfaction in
handling the older jets came mostly from tricking them into doing what you
wanted them to!

What did you think of the 727? In my youth I flew a lot
as a 727 pax. There was always something reassuring
about having 3 people up front and 3 big ole engines in
the back. Engines that you could fsking feel when the
levers were pushed all the way forward. A real airplane
for passengers that love planes.

Then there was the time I asked if I could sit up front.
The copilot graciously apologized for not being able to
let me, but he kindly offered to let me tag along as he
preflighted the a/c. Those were the good old days.

Jim Stewart wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote in
:


Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Much snippage...


technique. I have a frined who flies the 777 and he tells me it
flies just like an airplane.

Ok, I'll bite. What airplanes don't fly like airplanes?




Well, some of the older airliners had some interesting and
challenging quirks. They were not very speed stable on approach,
wallowed around like a milk van and could develop rates of descent
on approach that could plant you in seconds if you weren;'t careful.
Then there's the FBW Airbusses. Every time I talk to one of those
guys I walk away more confused about how the flight controls work
than I was before. Others, most of the 4 engine contraptions, for
instance, have to be landed wings level. The nmost recent crop handle
quite nicely, don't have spool up times stretching towards ten
seconds and just generaly are pleasant to handle. The satisfaction in
handling the older jets came mostly from tricking them into doing
what you wanted them to!

What did you think of the 727? In my youth I flew a lot
as a 727 pax. There was always something reassuring
about having 3 people up front and 3 big ole engines in
the back. Engines that you could fsking feel when the
levers were pushed all the way forward. A real airplane
for passengers that love planes.

I liked it for some of the same reasons you did. The three crew thing
was great. We used pro flight engineers ( as opposed to a kid fresh out
of Embry Riddle ). It wasn't exactly a sprots car in the handling
department, but it went where you told it with a bit of persuasion
(though you would get exactly the opposite view from a guy who came onto
it off of a 707, which was supposed to be a real handful) It was very
fast. Anything up to mach .93, a bit slower if you were heavy.
Very noisy flightdeck (wind) Nicely thought out for it's day with lots
of redundancy in all systems. It must have seemed like something from
Buck Rogers in 1963.

Then there was the time I asked if I could sit up front.
The copilot graciously apologized for not being able to
let me, but he kindly offered to let me tag along as he
preflighted the a/c. Those were the good old days.


Indeed. You wouldn't get that now.


Bertie

-------------------clip----------------

What did you think of the 727? In my youth I flew a lot
as a 727 pax. There was always something reassuring
about having 3 people up front and 3 big ole engines in
the back. Engines that you could fsking feel when the
levers were pushed all the way forward. A real airplane
for passengers that love planes.

I liked it for some of the same reasons you did. The three crew thing
was great. We used pro flight engineers ( as opposed to a kid fresh out
of Embry Riddle ). It wasn't exactly a sprots car in the handling
department, but it went where you told it with a bit of persuasion
(though you would get exactly the opposite view from a guy who came onto
it off of a 707, which was supposed to be a real handful) It was very
fast. Anything up to mach .93, a bit slower if you were heavy.
Very noisy flightdeck (wind) Nicely thought out for it's day with lots
of redundancy in all systems. It must have seemed like something from
Buck Rogers in 1963.


-----------clip------------

Bertie

Tell the story about when 727 first came out and a couple crashed
during flare (one was at SLC as I remember).

Bird was dirtiest aircraft I had seen up to that time when on final.
With everything out and down and Stews dragging their feet out of back
stair well didn't hardly look much different than a flying brick )

You can correct my remembrance. Bird started to get a bad name and
lots of quick investigations took place. It was found that if pilots
were sloppy flying the handbook airspeed on final and got just a
couple of knots slow they couldn't flare the bird. The fix was to
change the operating manual and raised approach speed 3 or so knots
(just a tweak) and bird became one of the best and safest birds
flying.

Correct me where I have remembered the details wrong.

Big John

Big John wrote in
:



Bertie

Tell the story about when 727 first came out and a couple crashed
during flare (one was at SLC as I remember).

Bird was dirtiest aircraft I had seen up to that time when on final.
With everything out and down and Stews dragging their feet out of back
stair well didn't hardly look much different than a flying brick )


Oh yeah, it could get a sink rate going that was just horrific. Even
clean it comes down like a brick. THe speedbrakes are quite effective
too, so if you wanted to you could get down real fast compared to other
airliners.


You can correct my remembrance. Bird started to get a bad name and
lots of quick investigations took place. It was found that if pilots
were sloppy flying the handbook airspeed on final and got just a
couple of knots slow they couldn't flare the bird.


Well, you're right except the flare part. What was happening was that
thy would get a messy appraoch going and they would revert to their
previous experince on DC-6s and what not and just haul the power back
and get it going down. Problem with the 727 was that that rate could
easily top 3,000 fpm in just a few seconds and it could take eight
seconds or so for the engines to spool up to approach power again. The
drill with all of these airplanes is to be absolutely on the glide,
fully configured, with the speed at or at least close to, final approach
speed at 1,000', no later. This is a good idea in most jets, but
absolutely essential in the 727. I don't know the specifics of any of
the accidnets, but there was one in Chicago, I think, where they didn;t
even make the airfield. Lots of others, as you say, where the meeting
with the runway didn't go so good.


The fix was to
change the operating manual and raised approach speed 3 or so knots
(just a tweak) and bird became one of the best and safest birds
flying.

Correct me where I have remembered the details wrong.

Don;t know about the increased approach speed, but they might have. I
think the training was probably the key to it's improved record. The
guys flying it, even the military guys, were often coming off of
airplanes that you could toss around at will. The 727 really had to be
flown in a very stable way al the way down. One other thing they did at
some point before I flew it, was to delete the 40 flap position. All
they did was put a bolt on the flap gate to restrict it's movement!


Bertie

On Mar 2, 9:41*pm, Jim Stewart wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Much snippage...

technique. I have a frined who flies the 777 and he tells me it flies
just like an airplane.

Ok, I'll bite. *What airplanes don't fly like airplanes?

Well, some of the older airliners had some interesting and challenging
quirks. They were not very speed stable on approach, wallowed around like a *
milk van and could develop rates of descent on approach that could plant
you in seconds if you weren;'t careful. Then there's the FBW Airbusses.
Every time I talk to one of those guys I walk away more confused about how
the flight controls work than I was before. Others, most of the 4 engine
contraptions, for instance, have to be landed wings level. The nmost recent
crop handle quite nicely, don't have spool up times stretching towards ten
seconds and just generaly are pleasant to handle. The satisfaction in
handling the older jets came mostly from tricking them into doing what you
wanted them to!

What did you think of the 727? *In my youth I flew a lot
as a 727 pax. *There was always something reassuring
about having 3 people up front and 3 big ole engines in
the back. *Engines that you could fsking feel when the
levers were pushed all the way forward. *A real airplane
for passengers that love planes.

Then there was the time I asked if I could sit up front.
The copilot graciously apologized for not being able to
let me, but he kindly offered to let me tag along as he
preflighted the a/c. *Those were the good old days.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The good old days, sure mis them. I flew in a PanAm 747 a few imes
and an Eatern 727 once as a kid and remember getting the wing from the
PanAm crew. Too bad I lost that wing.

The good old days when kids get wings from pilots, fire hats from
firemen and badges from policemen. I jnow the firemen still give out
fire hats at open houses, but the cops are no longer someone that
kidslook up to anymore. At least not around here.

Wil

---------------------clip-----------------

The good old days, sure mis them. I flew in a PanAm 747 a few imes
and an Eatern 727 once as a kid and remember getting the wing from the
PanAm crew. Too bad I lost that wing.

The good old days when kids get wings from pilots, fire hats from
firemen and badges from policemen. I jnow the firemen still give out
fire hats at open houses, but the cops are no longer someone that
kidslook up to anymore. At least not around here.

*********************************

Wil

Are you talking about the "Leg Spreaders" they used to hand out?

I still have a set in my box of old airplane memorabilia )

Big John

On Mar 3, 10:44*am, Big John wrote:
---------------------clip-----------------

The good old days, sure mis them. *I flew in a PanAm 747 a few imes
and an Eatern 727 once as a kid and remember getting the wing from the
PanAm crew. *Too bad I lost that wing.

The good old days when kids get wings from pilots, fire hats from
firemen and badges from policemen. *I jnow the firemen still give out
fire hats at open houses, but the cops are no longer someone that
kidslook up to anymore. *At least not around here.

*********************************

Wil

Are you talking about the "Leg Spreaders" they used to hand out?

I still have a set in my box of old airplane memorabilia )

Big John

Don't quite follow you with the "Leg Spreaders", but if you are
refering to the bush jumpers wings, I've seen them. lol I meant the
plastic captain's wings that they gave out. :-)

Thinking back, I remember we kids would run up to police cars when
they showed up in our 'hood'. We would bug them to turn on the sirens
and lights and they would hand out plastic badges. Now kids look the
other way when they see cops.

Shame really.

Wil

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 08:10:55 -0800 (PST), William Hung
wrote:

On Mar 3, 10:44*am, Big John wrote:
---------------------clip-----------------

The good old days, sure mis them. *I flew in a PanAm 747 a few imes
and an Eatern 727 once as a kid and remember getting the wing from the
PanAm crew. *Too bad I lost that wing.

The good old days when kids get wings from pilots, fire hats from
firemen and badges from policemen. *I jnow the firemen still give out
fire hats at open houses, but the cops are no longer someone that
kidslook up to anymore. *At least not around here.

*********************************

Wil

Are you talking about the "Leg Spreaders" they used to hand out?

I still have a set in my box of old airplane memorabilia )

Big John

Don't quite follow you with the "Leg Spreaders", but if you are
refering to the bush jumpers wings, I've seen them. lol I meant the
plastic captain's wings that they gave out. :-)

Thinking back, I remember we kids would run up to police cars when
they showed up in our 'hood'. We would bug them to turn on the sirens
and lights and they would hand out plastic badges. Now kids look the
other way when they see cops.

Shame really.

Wil


************************************************** ***

Wil

In olden days pilots were a good catch for young ladies. If you had a
set of wings to wear it was half the battle ) They all wanted to go
out with you )

The wings were metal like real ones but nothing in center saying what
airline, etc.

These were probably even before Berties time )

Big John