A Call to Arms from Richard VanGrunsven

the 51% rule only applies to amateur-built aircraft.


Why? That seems a little arbitrary to me. If one group is enjoined
from employing others to construct an aircraft, why should another
group be permitted to do the same thing with impunity?



Any individual or group can construct an aircraft. No one has been told
they cannot construct an aircraft. The only thing they are being told is
that it is illegal to attempt to license an aircraft in the official
specific license category of "Experimental - Amateur Built" that wan NOT in
fact, built by an amateur. I do not have a problem with that. Any
aircraft not built by an amateur can indeed be licensed, but only in the
appropriate category. If they proceed to license the aircraft correctly
there is no problem and no objection. The only problem is with people who
make known false official statements to allow an outcome they deem
favorable, if illegal.

Rather like saying "I didn't make enough money last year to file income tax.
All those W-2's with my name on them are really not mine or are mistaken and
should be ignored."

Highflyer

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 22:36:03 -0500, "Highflyer" wrote:


the 51% rule only applies to amateur-built aircraft.


Why? That seems a little arbitrary to me. If one group is enjoined
from employing others to construct an aircraft, why should another
group be permitted to do the same thing with impunity?


Any individual or group can construct an aircraft. No one has been told
they cannot construct an aircraft.

Implicit in my question was the intent to have the aircraft licensed.

The only thing they are being told is
that it is illegal to attempt to license an aircraft in the official
specific license category of "Experimental - Amateur Built" that wan [sic]
NOT in fact, built by an amateur. I do not have a problem with that.

My point is, why is does the FAA feel it is necessary to provide
separate experimental licensing criteria between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and other experimentals?

Any aircraft not built by an amateur can indeed be licensed, but only in the
appropriate category. If they proceed to license the aircraft correctly
there is no problem and no objection. The only problem is with people who
make known false official statements to allow an outcome they deem
favorable, if illegal.

I'm not condoning the making of false statements.

I'm questioning the appropriateness of the FAA's scrutinizing the
_intent_ of the builder(s). It seems to me that the FAA requirement
for the "Experimental - Amateur Built" builder to be motivated by
educational or recreational intent places the FAA in the role of
evaluating the mental state of the builder, not the airworthiness of
the aircraft.

I realize that those intents are ostensibility to prevent the
wholesale construction of uncertified aircraft by amateurs with the
intent to sell them to the public, but the rule seems flawed due to
the role of psychologist in which it necessarily places the FAA. The
FAA's role should be solely to determine the suitability of a given
aircraft to operate in the NAS with appropriate restrictions as may be
necessary, IMO, not to examine the motivation of the builder(s).

What are the pertinent licensing differences between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and those of the appropriate experimental type of say
SpaceshipOne built by Scaled Composites commissioned by Branson?

What is your opinion of a group composed of an experienced builder and
a potential operator of the fruit of their labor collaborating on the
construction of an aircraft licensed as "Experimental - Amateur
Built?" Wouldn't that be a simple method of circumventing the
"Experimental - Amateur Built?" rubric?

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 22:36:03 -0500, "Highflyer" wrote:


the 51% rule only applies to amateur-built aircraft.


Why? That seems a little arbitrary to me. If one group is enjoined
from employing others to construct an aircraft, why should another
group be permitted to do the same thing with impunity?


Any individual or group can construct an aircraft. No one has been
told they cannot construct an aircraft.

Implicit in my question was the intent to have the aircraft licensed.

The only thing they are being told is
that it is illegal to attempt to license an aircraft in the official
specific license category of "Experimental - Amateur Built" that wan
[sic] NOT in fact, built by an amateur. I do not have a problem with
that.

My point is, why is does the FAA feel it is necessary to provide
separate experimental licensing criteria between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and other experimentals?

Any aircraft not built by an amateur can indeed be licensed, but only
in the appropriate category. If they proceed to license the aircraft
correctly there is no problem and no objection. The only problem is
with people who make known false official statements to allow an
outcome they deem favorable, if illegal.

I'm not condoning the making of false statements.


No, you just make them yourself and cut out the middle man.

I'm questioning the appropriateness of the FAA's scrutinizing the
_intent_ of the builder(s). It seems to me that the FAA requirement
for the "Experimental - Amateur Built" builder to be motivated by
educational or recreational intent places the FAA in the role of
evaluating the mental state of the builder, not the airworthiness of
the aircraft.

I realize that those intents are ostensibility to prevent the
wholesale construction of uncertified aircraft by amateurs with the
intent to sell them to the public, but the rule seems flawed due to
the role of psychologist in which it necessarily places the FAA. The
FAA's role should be solely to determine the suitability of a given
aircraft to operate in the NAS with appropriate restrictions as may be
necessary, IMO, not to examine the motivation of the builder(s).

What are the pertinent licensing differences between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and those of the appropriate experimental type of say
SpaceshipOne built by Scaled Composites commissioned by Branson?


It wasn't commisoned by branson, fjukkwit.


He merely jumped in when he saw it nearing the finish line.

What is your opinion of a group composed of an experienced builder and
a potential operator of the fruit of their labor collaborating on the
construction of an aircraft licensed as "Experimental - Amateur
Built?" Wouldn't that be a simple method of circumventing the
"Experimental - Amateur Built?" rubric?


Twit.

Bertie

Larry Dighera wrote:
My point is, why is does the FAA feel it is necessary to provide
separate experimental licensing criteria between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and other experimentals?

The answer to that requires going through some history. Too much for me to
recount here - even if I knew it all (and I don't). Amateur builders today
appear to have a lot to thank for the tireless work of people like the
"Beaverton Outlaws" of Oregon. Quoting from Ron Wanttaja's book "Kit
Airplane Construction": "By World War II, homebuilt aircraft had been
banned in every state of the Union. Except Oregon."

Here's a very nice article titled "The Resistance" about how some of the
Oregonian "rebels" were critical in getting that category into the
regulations:

http://www.airspacemag.com/issues/20...on_outlaws.php

What are the pertinent licensing differences between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and those of the appropriate experimental type of say
SpaceshipOne built by Scaled Composites commissioned by Branson?

If the experimental is created in furtherance of a business it is supposed
to be registered under a different experimental category. It may also have
different operating limitations. Scaled Composites almost certainly doesn't
attempt to register its aircraft under the amateur built category.


"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to
the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is
eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the
consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt."
---- John Philpot Curran
From http://www.bartleby.com/73/1054.html

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

My point is, why is does the FAA feel it is necessary to provide
separate experimental licensing criteria between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and other experimentals?

The FAA does NOT feel it is necessary. It took many years to get them to
allow a homemade airplane to fly in US airspace at all. The compromise we
got was a special category in Experimental for amateur built airplanes. We
also got much better operational limitations that any of the other
experimental categories. We are very happy that we have a special category.
We would much rather not have this rare privelege abused by a bunch of
greedy shortsighted idiots lining their pockets. Any privelege, when
abused, is vulnerable to loss. That is the way of the world.

There are many avenues in the regulations for people to build and sell
airplanes. They are not i mpossible. Look at Cirrus. However, t hey do
require some effort. People who want to make a buck building airplanes, but
do not want to put in the time and effort to ensure that they meet
appropriate standards for doing so really should not be allowed to abuse the
privelege granted to homebuilders.

Highflyer
EAA member for 50 years.

"Highflyer" wrote in :


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

My point is, why is does the FAA feel it is necessary to provide
separate experimental licensing criteria between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and other experimentals?

The FAA does NOT feel it is necessary. It took many years to get them
to allow a homemade airplane to fly in US airspace at all. The
compromise we got was a special category in Experimental for amateur
built airplanes. We also got much better operational limitations that
any of the other experimental categories. We are very happy that we
have a special category. We would much rather not have this rare
privelege abused by a bunch of greedy shortsighted idiots lining their
pockets. Any privelege, when abused, is vulnerable to loss. That is
the way of the world.

There are many avenues in the regulations for people to build and sell
airplanes. They are not i mpossible. Look at Cirrus. However, t hey
do require some effort. People who want to make a buck building
airplanes, but do not want to put in the time and effort to ensure
that they meet appropriate standards for doing so really should not be
allowed to abuse the privelege granted to homebuilders.

Highflyer
EAA member for 50 years.


hear hear

Bertie
EAA member for 37 years.

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:28:42 -0500, "Highflyer" wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .

My point is, why is does the FAA feel it is necessary to provide
separate experimental licensing criteria between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and other experimentals?

The FAA does NOT feel it is necessary.

If it's unnecessary, why do they have other experimental types?

It took many years to get them to allow a homemade airplane to fly in US
airspace at all.

What year was that?

The compromise we got was a special category in Experimental for
amateur built airplanes. We also got much better operational
limitations that [sic] any of the other experimental categories.
We are very happy that we have a special category.

That sounds appropriate. But you make it sound like the FAA (or CAA
at the time?) had the legal right to prevent amateur built aircraft
from operating in the NAS. While the FAA surely possessed the power,
I submit, that such a "right" probably wouldn't stand up to a legal
challenge, and that is probably why the FAA made the concession to
amateur constructed experimental aircraft. But you are far more
familiar with topic than I.

We would much rather not have this rare privelege abused by a bunch of
greedy shortsighted idiots lining their pockets. Any privelege, when
abused, is vulnerable to loss. That is the way of the world.

I'm not convinced that flying an airplane you built is not a right,
providing it meets the standards of others that have been permitted to
fly.

United State Code TITLE 49 - TRANSPORTATION
Sec. 40103. Sovereignty and use of airspace
(2) A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit
through the navigable airspace.

Perhaps the time has come to rethink the whole issue.

What if the FAA's intent to modify the current amateur built
experimental regulations were to result, not in further restrictions
and prohibitions, but in accommodating those who desire to commission
the construction of aircraft that haven't been submitted to type
certification standards (something like the LSAs), but do meet the
airworthiness standards of other experimental aircraft that have been
licensed by the FAA to operate in the NAS? Would that be a bad thing?
Why?


There are many avenues in the regulations for people to build and sell
airplanes. They are not i mpossible. Look at Cirrus. However, t hey do
require some effort.

Are you referring to Cirrus certifying an amateur build experimental
aircraft in the Normal category?

People who want to make a buck building airplanes, but
do not want to put in the time and effort to ensure that they meet
appropriate standards for doing so really should not be allowed to abuse the
privelege granted to homebuilders.

There are a few "loaded' concepts in that assertion, IMO.

First, the aircraft to which you refer probably do meet the standards
of amateur built experimental aircraft or the standards that the FAA
has established for other experimental aircraft.

Second, construction of an aircraft that meets those standards can
hardly be construed as "abuse" in my opinion.

Third, is the notion that building and flying an amateur built
aircraft that complies with FAA standards is a "privilege" not a
right.

It seems the FAA has attempted to prevent the wholesale construction
of experimental aircraft by judging the intent (or mental state and
motivation) of the builder, rather than judging the safety of the
aircraft in question, as would seem considerably more appropriate for
a governmental agency, IMO. Perhaps it's time for that sort of
governmental "thought policing" to be reexamined.


Highflyer
EAA member for 50 years.


Thanks for the information you have provided, John. I'm not trying to
upset anyone; I'm just thinking outside the box in the hope such
objective analysis by someone who has hasn't been an EAA member ever,
let alone fifty years, will provide another way to view the issue.

Larry Dighera wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:28:42 -0500, "Highflyer" wrote:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
. ..

My point is, why is does the FAA feel it is necessary to provide
separate experimental licensing criteria between "Experimental -
Amateur Built" and other experimentals?

The FAA does NOT feel it is necessary.

If it's unnecessary, why do they have other experimental types?

It took many years to get them to allow a homemade airplane to fly in
US airspace at all.

What year was that?

The compromise we got was a special category in Experimental for
amateur built airplanes. We also got much better operational
limitations that [sic] any of the other experimental categories.
We are very happy that we have a special category.

That sounds appropriate. But you make it sound like the FAA (or CAA
at the time?) had the legal right to prevent amateur built aircraft
from operating in the NAS. While the FAA surely possessed the power,
I submit, that such a "right" probably wouldn't stand up to a legal
challenge, and that is probably why the FAA made the concession to
amateur constructed experimental aircraft. But you are far more
familiar with topic than I.

We would much rather not have this rare privelege abused by a bunch of
greedy shortsighted idiots lining their pockets. Any privelege, when
abused, is vulnerable to loss. That is the way of the world.

I'm not convinced that flying an airplane you built is not a right,
providing it meets the standards of others that have been permitted to
fly.

United State Code TITLE 49 - TRANSPORTATION
Sec. 40103. Sovereignty and use of airspace
(2) A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit
through the navigable airspace.

Perhaps the time has come to rethink the whole issue.

What if the FAA's intent to modify the current amateur built
experimental regulations were to result, not in further restrictions
and prohibitions, but in accommodating those who desire to commission
the construction of aircraft that haven't been submitted to type
certification standards (something like the LSAs), but do meet the
airworthiness standards of other experimental aircraft that have been
licensed by the FAA to operate in the NAS? Would that be a bad thing?
Why?


There are many avenues in the regulations for people to build and sell
airplanes. They are not i mpossible. Look at Cirrus. However, t hey
do require some effort.

Are you referring to Cirrus certifying an amateur build experimental
aircraft in the Normal category?

People who want to make a buck building airplanes, but
do not want to put in the time and effort to ensure that they meet
appropriate standards for doing so really should not be allowed to
abuse the privelege granted to homebuilders.

There are a few "loaded' concepts in that assertion, IMO.


So write a letter to the times, k00k.

First, the aircraft to which you refer probably do meet the standards
of amateur built experimental aircraft or the standards that the FAA
has established for other experimental aircraft.

Yeah, "probably". That;s a word you see a lot of in the FARs.



Second, construction of an aircraft that meets those standards can
hardly be construed as "abuse" in my opinion.



Your opinion doesn't matter.

Bertie

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:28:42 -0500, "Highflyer" wrote:
I'm not convinced that flying an airplane you built is not a right,
providing it meets the standards of others that have been permitted to
fly.

Anyone can build an fly any airplane with no amateur built restrictions at
all if they do that. The standards are set forth in the FAR's Part 21.
Technical requirements are in FAR Part 23. These are the standards
established for building and flying aircraft in the US airspace. These
standards were established about 80 years ago to prevent people from
building and selling deathtraps to unsuspecting pilots who were not
aeronautical engineers.

What if the FAA's intent to modify the current amateur built
experimental regulations were to result, not in further restrictions
and prohibitions, but in accommodating those who desire to commission
the construction of aircraft that haven't been submitted to type
certification standards (something like the LSAs), but do meet the
airworthiness standards of other experimental aircraft that have been
licensed by the FAA to operate in the NAS? Would that be a bad thing?


The FAA did precisely that with the S-LSA certification process. It greatly
simplified the proof and oversight needed to ensure an adequate standard for
aircraft that cannot endanger a lot of unsuspecting people. That is why
they limited them to slower airspeeds and lighter weights as well as two
places. They are also only allowed to fly Daytime and by Visual flight
rules. Not unreasonable restrictions for aircraft that do not meet the full
blown standards required for aircraft to be sold to the general public.



People who want to make a buck building airplanes, but
do not want to put in the time and effort to ensure that they meet
appropriate standards for doing so really should not be allowed to abuse
the
privelege granted to homebuilders.

There are a few "loaded' concepts in that assertion, IMO.

First, the aircraft to which you refer probably do meet the standards
of amateur built experimental aircraft or the standards that the FAA
has established for other experimental aircraft.

Second, construction of an aircraft that meets those standards can
hardly be construed as "abuse" in my opinion.


Clearly an uninformed opinion. All experimental aircraft do NOT meet the
same standards. The bulk of the experimental class is set up to all
aircraft manufacturers to perform reasonable flight tests of new designs
before entering the full certification procedures. That is the REASON for
an "experimental" category. For flying "experimental" aircraft prior to
certification so they can generate the data required for certification.

The FAA generously allowed two separate classes under the general
"experimental" category for special airplanes that did NOT meet the
standards for certification. In these classes the aircraft is NOT really
"experimental." They just put them there because that is where they put
aircraft that were not certified as up to the published standards.

In these two classes each aircraft is treated and inspected as a "one of a
kind" aircraft to ensure a reasonable standard of construction if not
design. Typically the field maintenance inspectors who were charged with
inspecting these aircraft were not trained to make design critiques and
evaluations. They could evaluate construction quality and technique.

These two special categories that did not require full compliance with the
published airworthiness standards for flight in the US airspace are
Experimental, Amateur Built and Experimental, Exibition. The amateur built
category allowed people who built their own airplane for educational or
recreational reasons, not for profit, to actually fly their creations
legally in the airspace without having to comply with the published
standards.

The Exibition category allows us to fly aircraft that have never been
certified by our published standards in our airspace. This is usually the
home for unusual or antique aircraft that predate the certification
standards or otherwise sidestepped them. You "hired gun" who builds an
aircraft on "commission" for someone who doesn't want to build it himself
can license an aircraft they built in this category. It does, however, have
a few more stringent operating limitations than the Amateur built category
does. The "hired guns" are falsifying information in order to avoid these
additional operational limitations.

The method for removing these operational limitations is spelled out in the
regulations. Merely comply with the standards required for certification.
I admit this is easier to say than do. That is why they established a
separate certification path and separate certification standards for LSA
aircraft.



Third, is the notion that building and flying an amateur built
aircraft that complies with FAA standards is a "privilege" not a
right.

It seems the FAA has attempted to prevent the wholesale construction
of experimental aircraft by judging the intent (or mental state and
motivation) of the builder, rather than judging the safety of the
aircraft in question, as would seem considerably more appropriate for
a governmental agency, IMO. Perhaps it's time for that sort of
governmental "thought policing" to be reexamined.


Not at all. They merely provided a different way to judge the safety of the
aircraft in question that adhereing to the published standards in special
cases.


Thanks for the information you have provided, John. I'm not trying to
upset anyone; I'm just thinking outside the box in the hope such
objective analysis by someone who has hasn't been an EAA member ever,
let alone fifty years, will provide another way to view the issue.


You can do that. However, you are not thinking "outside the box." You are
rehashing old tired arguments that were brought up and shot down over fifty
years ago. What we have today is a hard won compromise that allows us a
tremendous degree of freedom compared to every other country in the world.
There are many people in this country that believe we have way too much
freedom to build and fly airplanes over THEIR house. It takes a continueing
effort to maintain these hard won priveleges. If we lose what we have then
the largest and fastest growing segment of General Aviation is dead. I do
not want that to happen. I have been working for fifty years to expand and
clarify these issues through the EAA and AOPA. Let's not undo years of work
and wind up with nothing.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport, PJY

On 2008-03-18, Highflyer wrote:
The FAA did precisely that with the S-LSA certification process. It greatly
simplified the proof and oversight needed to ensure an adequate standard for
aircraft that cannot endanger a lot of unsuspecting people. That is why
they limited them to slower airspeeds and lighter weights as well as two
places. They are also only allowed to fly Daytime and by Visual flight
rules.

Not true. They can fly IFR or night VFR if properly equipped. That's one big
reason I wound up with a Zodiac XLi. The key is that no part of the aircraft
must have manufacturer's instructions prohibiting night or IFR operations,
and their equipment must meet the minimum standards of the rules. This
means, for example, that the aircraft must not be powered by a Rotax 912ULS
or Jabiru 3300, both of which have manufacturer's instructions limiting them
to day VFR.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)