Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

Ron Natalie wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:

Ask your instructor to explain to you what happens to the stall speed
in a LEVEL turn as opposed to the stall speed in an unloaded gliding
turn from base to final.
This is a distinction you should definitely be aware of.


If he's maintaining a constant rate of descent during the turn there is
no distinction. The load factor decreases only if he is accellerating
towards the ground.
Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the
nose to fall through with reduced back pressure.

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.

Reducing back pressure is something an inexperienced pilot is instinctively
loath to do when manuvering close to the ground, much more likely to be pulling.

Vaughn

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.

Reducing back pressure is something an inexperienced pilot is instinctively
loath to do when manuvering close to the ground, much more likely to be pulling.

Vaughn


This is an issue where I have seen evidence on both sides. It is
entirely dependent on the caliber of training a student pilot is
subjected to in the stall curve.
All instructors should be teaching and ingraining in every student they
teach that stall recovery REGARDLESS OF ALTITUDE is entirely dependent
on reducing angle of attack. This is especially true at low altitude
where recovery can be a matter of using every inch of available air
under the airplane to recover.
Instructors should be EMPHASIZING to every student this all important
aspect of a low altitude stall.
By the time an instructor is finished teaching stall recovery to a
student, that student should have the stall recovery habit pattern
BURNED into their very being.......so much in fact that their natural
reaction to ANY stall is to recover by reducing angle of attack so that
the reaction is to do this instead of pulling back.
To accomplish this, instructors have to demonstrate to every student
again and again proper stall recovery using all available means....angle
of attack reduction, coordinated aileron and rudder (for modern GA
airplanes) and power. This should be practiced with emphasis on the
regaining of angle of attack BEFORE initiating recovery. As this
pertains to low altitude recovery, the instructor should emphazize again
and again that recovery in this scenario might very well mean the
lowering of the nose when the raising of the nose is the natural reaction.

Many....many...pilots have been killed outright trying to recover from a
low altitude stall when extending the recovery closer to the ground to
assure regaining of angle of attack was the proper thing to do.

The answer to this issue is in proper training by instructors with the
goal of CHANGING through this training the natural reaction to recover
too early in low altitude stalls.

I consider the imparting of this attitude in a student pilot a critical
aspect of stall recovery training.
I can't emphasize it's importance enough to new instructors.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:08:30 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.
snip for brevity

I consider the imparting of this attitude in a student pilot a critical
aspect of stall recovery training.
I can't emphasize it's importance enough to new instructors.

After following many of these threads over the years I am truly
thankful for the instructors who followed these tenants in my primary
training.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:08:30 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.
snip for brevity

I consider the imparting of this attitude in a student pilot a critical
aspect of stall recovery training.
I can't emphasize it's importance enough to new instructors.

After following many of these threads over the years I am truly
thankful for the instructors who followed these tenants in my primary
training.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Me too !

--
Dudley Henriques

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:10:06 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:08:30 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.
snip for brevity

I consider the imparting of this attitude in a student pilot a critical
aspect of stall recovery training.
I can't emphasize it's importance enough to new instructors.

After following many of these threads over the years I am truly
thankful for the instructors who followed these tenants in my primary
training.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Me too !

One of the things they emphasized was if I ever encountered an
accelerated stall close to the ground was to just point the nose in
the direction it wanted to go. That immediately brakes the stall and
stops any tendency to roll under or over the top. You might leave the
pattern at a rather embarrassing altitude and direction but at least
it would be alive.

That was not a recommendation for anyone to try it, or in any way
reduce the thought of how serious stalling at low altitude and
particularly a turning stall at low altitude can be.

OTOH as you've pointed out the recovery techniques have to be
ingrained. They are not something you can stop and think about. Like
engine failure just after lift off you don't stop to think, "Hey, I
just had an engine failure. The first thing I need to do is lower the
nose to keep flying speed, now I need to pick a landing spot which
one is best, can I keep it on the airport, or am I high enough to make
the "impossible turn?". By the time you can say that first sentence
your subconscious will have, or should have, done all the rest.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 13, 6:45*pm, Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 23:10:06 -0400, Dudley Henriques





wrote:
Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:08:30 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
. ..
Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.
snip for brevity

I consider the imparting of this attitude in a student pilot a critical
aspect of stall recovery training.
I can't emphasize it's importance enough to new instructors.

After following many of these threads over the years I am truly
thankful for the instructors who followed these tenants in my primary
training.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Me too !

One of the things they emphasized was if I ever encountered an
accelerated stall close to the ground was to just point the nose in
the direction it wanted to go. *

How does that fix a developing yaw?

Cheers

On Mar 13, 9:35*am, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message

...

Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.

* *Reducing back pressure is something an inexperienced pilot is instinctively
loath to do when manuvering close to the ground, much more likely to be pulling.

on the contrary I have a habit of deliberately pushing forward on the
yoke as I turn onto final, it comes from a fear of stalling and the
fact
that being at this stage of the landing procedure I want my attention
focused outside the cockpit to ensure I line up out of the turn on the
runway centerline, and not worrying about my airspeed.
Terry

terry wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:35 am, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message

...

Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.
Reducing back pressure is something an inexperienced pilot is instinctively
loath to do when manuvering close to the ground, much more likely to be pulling.

on the contrary I have a habit of deliberately pushing forward on the
yoke as I turn onto final, it comes from a fear of stalling and the
fact
that being at this stage of the landing procedure I want my attention
focused outside the cockpit to ensure I line up out of the turn on the
runway centerline, and not worrying about my airspeed.
Terry


You had good instruction Terry. I'd only add for you to monitor your
airspeed as well. In other words, never omit an available cue.

"We don't fly in a single cue world"
Chris Patterakis
USAF Thunderbirds Lead

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 13, 12:30*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
terry wrote:
On Mar 13, 9:35 am, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message

. ..

Exactly. The difference between a loaded turn and simply allowing the nose to
fall through with reduced back pressure.
* *Reducing back pressure is something an inexperienced pilot is instinctively
loath to do when manuvering close to the ground, much more likely to be pulling.

on the contrary I have a habit of deliberately pushing forward on the
yoke as I turn onto final, it comes from a fear of stalling and the
fact
that being at this stage of the landing procedure I want my attention
focused outside the cockpit to ensure I line up out of the turn on the
runway centerline, and not worrying about my airspeed.
Terry

You had good instruction Terry. I'd only add for you to monitor your
airspeed as well. In other words, never omit an available cue.

Its not something I was actually trained to do, just something I
developed myself to be sure I dont lose any speed. Although I do
remember in my training losing airspeed in the turns practising
power off landings while concentrating too much on finding a field.
Having carefully trimmed the C150 to 65 kt glide speed I was maybe
dropping to 55 kts in the turns. I can still remember the instructors
warning to "watch the f......k airspeed in the turn or it will bite
you one day" Rather than watching the airspeed more carefully, I
just developed the habit of dipping the nose a bit to make sure of
it. I think its just an overload thing. While I do normally keep a
close watch on my airspeed, when I am turning I think I focus too much
on the attitude indicator instead of the ASI, as well as focusing
outside of course. I guess I am one of those people who have trouble
walking and chewing gum at the same time!
Terry