Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Tina wrote in news:874d408e-73e6-4064-8d08-
:

I don't think anyone has suggested this, but there is a nearly
universal cure if you find yourself uncomfortably out of a reasonable
approach condition -- simply say to yourself this isn't looking good
enough, go around, and do better the next time.

It's my uneducated opinion that too many perfectly good airplanes get
turned to scrap because pilots continue to commit to an action that
has become untenable. You have a hand on the throttle and it's
important to remember to be ready to push it in if you don't like the
way things are shaping up.

Absolutely.

Don't let ego get in the way of good judgement.

True again. Sometimes it's not ego, though. A lot of thigs come into play,
especially if conditions are tough. It's a curious thing, the sort of
single-mindedness that often accompanies an accident.

Bertie

Lesson here is go-around if concerned and make sure you are preset for that
option?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Tina wrote in news:874d408e-73e6-4064-8d08-
:

I don't think anyone has suggested this, but there is a nearly
universal cure if you find yourself uncomfortably out of a reasonable
approach condition -- simply say to yourself this isn't looking good
enough, go around, and do better the next time.

It's my uneducated opinion that too many perfectly good airplanes get
turned to scrap because pilots continue to commit to an action that
has become untenable. You have a hand on the throttle and it's
important to remember to be ready to push it in if you don't like the
way things are shaping up.
Absolutely.
Don't let ego get in the way of good judgement.
True again. Sometimes it's not ego, though. A lot of thigs come into play,
especially if conditions are tough. It's a curious thing, the sort of
single-mindedness that often accompanies an accident.

Bertie

Lesson here is go-around if concerned and make sure you are preset for that
option?

Well trained pilots will fly the approach treating it as a constantly
changing dynamic. They will be planning for the next anticipated action
based on all prevailing cues. Along with this they will have an
accompanying exit plan keyed by any expected parameter not being met by
any of these cues.
The go around trigger should occur if a critical parameter isn't met.
Each pilot will have a different trigger level based on various human
factors involving the pilot's training and his/her mental processing in
play on the approach.
This is the pedantic version of "If it don't look good, it usually ain't
no good......take it around!! :-))"


--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 12, 7:59*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Well trained pilots will fly the approach treating it as a constantly
changing dynamic. They will be planning for the next anticipated action
based on all prevailing cues. Along with this they will have an
accompanying exit plan keyed by any expected parameter not being met by
any of these cues.
The go around trigger should occur if a critical parameter isn't met.
Each pilot will have a different trigger level based on various human
factors involving the pilot's training and his/her mental processing in
play on the approach.
This is the pedantic version of "If it don't look good, it usually ain't
no good......take it around!! :-))"

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

Bertie, WJR andDudley,
I like these explanations, even if not highly technical. I would
characterize my thinking at the time (if you can call it that) as the
"critical parameters" being (1) the ball being centered, (2) the speed
being above 70k, (3) keeping the nose down, not "yanked", to permit
the plane to sort of fall into a descent at 400-500 ft.min. and (4) my
position (altitude/heading) at every point during the turn.
Obviously, I wasn't thinking in terms of "critical parameters', but
the turn "felt" and looked OK (according to those criteria). I was
constantly prepared to level the wings, shove in the thrrottle and
break off the approach at any time things didn't feel or look right or
stay within the criteria I set. Right hand was on the throttle at all
times. I guess my original question was really "how much of a comfort
factor, if any, is a coordinated turn vs a slip or skid while turning
at that point in the approach?"

skym wrote:
I guess my original question was really "how much of a comfort
factor, if any, is a coordinated turn vs a slip or skid while turning
at that point in the approach?"

Your "comfort factor" widens as you gain experience through exposure.

As you fly each approach and actually see and feel how the airplane
responds in various situations you will begin to feel more comfortable.
One thing that will help you is to leave the aerodynamics thinking on
the ground. Do your theory between flights. Not doing this can result in
you over working the problem. Just sit back, fly the airplane, and pay
attention to what's happening as you do this. I think you'll find that
each approach will get better generally. You will have some plateaus
where it all seems to go to hell, but hang in there.

One thing about approaches. Keep your main attention outside the
airplane. Don't over concentrate on the panel. Do your instrument
checking quickly and peripherally as you scan the horizon and your
visual positioning on the approach. Don't get all hung up on what the
ADI is doing. Your main attention at pattern altitude on down should be
NOSE ATTITUDE and VISUAL POSITIONING. Once you get used to this, you are
shortening the list of items on your multi-tasking list and your comfort
zone will widen for you.




--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 13, 8:44*am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
skym wrote:
* I guess my original question was really "how much of a comfort
factor, if any, is a coordinated turn vs a slip or skid while turning
at that point in the approach?"

Your "comfort factor" widens as you gain experience through exposure.

As you fly each approach and actually see and feel how the airplane
responds in various situations you will begin to feel more comfortable.
One thing that will help you is to leave the aerodynamics thinking on
the ground. Do your theory between flights. Not doing this can result in
you over working the problem. Just sit back, fly the airplane, and pay
attention to what's happening as you do this. I think you'll find that
each approach will get better generally. You will have some plateaus
where it all seems to go to hell, but hang in there.

One thing about approaches. Keep your main attention outside the
airplane. Don't over concentrate on the panel. Do your instrument
checking quickly and peripherally as you scan the horizon and your
visual positioning on the approach. Don't get all hung up on what the
ADI is doing. Your main attention at pattern altitude on down should be
NOSE ATTITUDE and VISUAL POSITIONING. Once you get used to this, you are
shortening the list of items on your multi-tasking list and your comfort
zone will widen for you.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley,
Thanks. Very helpful.

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Tina wrote in news:874d408e-73e6-4064-8d08-
:

I don't think anyone has suggested this, but there is a nearly
universal cure if you find yourself uncomfortably out of a
reasonable approach condition -- simply say to yourself this isn't
looking good enough, go around, and do better the next time.

It's my uneducated opinion that too many perfectly good airplanes
get turned to scrap because pilots continue to commit to an action
that has become untenable. You have a hand on the throttle and it's
important to remember to be ready to push it in if you don't like
the way things are shaping up.

Absolutely.

Don't let ego get in the way of good judgement.

True again. Sometimes it's not ego, though. A lot of thigs come into
play, especially if conditions are tough. It's a curious thing, the
sort of single-mindedness that often accompanies an accident.

Bertie

Lesson here is go-around if concerned and make sure you are preset for
that option?

Yeah. Should be, but we're only human. We have a two approach limit, too.
We're not allowed to do a third one ( company manual)
the number of accidents off a third approach is alarming.

Bertie

On Mar 13, 4:55*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
WJRFlyBoy wrote :





On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Tina wrote in news:874d408e-73e6-4064-8d08-
:

I don't think anyone has suggested this, but there is a nearly
universal cure if you find yourself uncomfortably out of a
reasonable approach condition -- simply say to yourself this isn't
looking good enough, *go around, and do better the next time.

It's my uneducated opinion that too many perfectly good airplanes
get turned to scrap because pilots continue to commit to an action
that has become untenable. You have a hand on the throttle and it's
important to remember to be ready to push it in if you don't like
the way things are shaping up.

Absolutely.

Don't let ego get in the way of good judgement.

True again. Sometimes it's not ego, though. A lot of thigs come into
play, especially if conditions are tough. It's a curious thing, the
sort of single-mindedness that often accompanies an accident.

Bertie

Lesson here is go-around if concerned and make sure you are preset for
that option?

Yeah. Should be, but we're only human. We have a two approach limit, too.
We're not allowed to do a third one ( company manual)
the number of accidents off a third approach is alarming.

so you just stay up there? :)

terry wrote in
:

On Mar 13, 4:55*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
WJRFlyBoy wrote
innews:au07i6kpg998.na9z6vwx
:





On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:46:16 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Tina wrote in
news:874d408e-73e6-4064-8d08-
:

I don't think anyone has suggested this, but there is a nearly
universal cure if you find yourself uncomfortably out of a
reasonable approach condition -- simply say to yourself this
isn't looking good enough, *go around, and do better the next
time.

It's my uneducated opinion that too many perfectly good airplanes
get turned to scrap because pilots continue to commit to an
action that has become untenable. You have a hand on the throttle
and it's important to remember to be ready to push it in if you
don't like the way things are shaping up.

Absolutely.

Don't let ego get in the way of good judgement.

True again. Sometimes it's not ego, though. A lot of thigs come
into play, especially if conditions are tough. It's a curious
thing, the sort of single-mindedness that often accompanies an
accident.

Bertie

Lesson here is go-around if concerned and make sure you are preset
for that option?

Yeah. Should be, but we're only human. We have a two approach limit,
too. We're not allowed to do a third one ( company manual)
the number of accidents off a third approach is alarming.

so you just stay up there? :)


Yeah, I've been holding over Wayne county since '83



Bertie