Thinking about stalls

On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
TakeFlight wrote in news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428-
:

Put me in the "not enough info" column.

Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending fast
with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for example.

That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules pretty
much go out the window with one of those.
not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario that is
so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic retraining was *
introduced right across the board after it. Flight guidance systems were
modified to account for the new methods, so it's not really relevant.

Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a scenario. You've
just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly, your
airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say. you increase
your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds back a tad. Still plenty
in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging your speed
back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that delivered that extra
speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to your orignal pitch and have a
couple of knots more than you had at the beginning. All the sudden, the
bottom falls out of your airplane. Your climb stops and then a second later *
you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed washes
off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall warning is starting
to squeak.

you gotta do something and right now. you still have some altitude, say 400
feet. what do you do?

Bertie

Alt-Ctl-Del

No, wait, change my underwear.

Yoke forward, nose down and max power?

Richard

wrote in
:

On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
TakeFlight wrote in
news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428-
:

Put me in the "not enough info" column.

Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending fast
with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for example.

That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules
pretty much go out the window with one of those.
not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario
that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic
retraining was * introduced right across the board after it. Flight
guidance systems were modified to account for the new methods, so
it's not really relevant.

Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a scenario.
You'v
e
just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly, your
airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say. you
increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds back a
tad. Still plent
y
in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging your
speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that delivered
that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to your orignal
pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at the beginning.
All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your airplane. Your climb
stops and then a second late
r *
you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed
washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall warning
is starting to squeak.

you gotta do something and right now. you still have some altitude,
say 40
0
feet. what do you do?

Bertie

Alt-Ctl-Del

No, wait, change my underwear.

Yoke forward, nose down and max power?

That's what the Delta guys did. And that 727 in New Orleans. A different
approach was needed and what they came up with was full power. and in a
jet that means firewall and overboost to your little heart's contenet,
and nose up as much as you can. The stall warnign should be ringing off
the wall ( we have stick shakers, but same thing) and you keep this up
til you fly out the other side of the mess. It goes against everything
we've learned but that's what they tell us to do. There's generally some
guidance form the flight director as well. On some it's a set of yellow
"antlers" that give you best pitch and on others the pitch bar on the
flight director just gives you all the pitch info you need ( you just
put the airplane wings on a magenta bar, no brains required)
note this is for a sustained and powerful microburst and not for
recovery form a tiny bit of wind shear in a 20 knot wind.

Bertie

On Mar 14, 11:58*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :



On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
TakeFlight wrote in
news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428-
:

Put me in the "not enough info" column.

Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending fast
with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for example.

That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules
pretty much go out the window with one of those.
not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario
that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic
retraining was * introduced right across the board after it. Flight
guidance systems were modified to account for the new methods, so
it's not really relevant.

Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a scenario.
You'v
e
just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly, your
airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say. you
increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds back a
tad. Still plent
y
in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging your
speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that delivered
that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to your orignal
pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at the beginning.
All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your airplane. Your climb
stops and then a second late
r *
you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed
washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall warning
is starting to squeak.

you gotta do something and right now. you still have some altitude,
say 40
0
feet. what do you do?

Bertie

Alt-Ctl-Del

No, wait, change my underwear.

Yoke forward, nose down and max power?

That's what the Delta guys did. And that 727 in New Orleans. A different
approach was needed and what they came up with was full power. and in a
jet that means firewall and overboost to your little heart's contenet,
and nose up as much as you can. The stall warnign should be ringing off
the wall ( we have stick shakers, but same thing) and you keep this up
til you fly out the other side of the mess. It goes against everything
we've learned but that's what they tell us to do. There's generally some
guidance form the flight director as well. On some it's a set of yellow
"antlers" that give you best pitch and on others the pitch bar on the
flight director just gives you all the pitch info you need ( you just
put the airplane wings on a magenta bar, no brains required)
note this is for a sustained and powerful microburst and not for
recovery form a tiny bit of wind shear in a 20 knot wind.

Bertie

That's what I couldn't remember; I recalled the DFW incident (drove by
a couple of weeks after- messy) and remembered reading about the sim
duplication. Yep. Pull back would take some sim work I'd think to
ingrain something that seems so counter-intuitive.

So, pull back, firewall, recover, enjoy the shaking hands/knees,
change underwear. Gotcha. Oh, land, have beer.

wrote in
:

On Mar 14, 11:58*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:b887a328-823a-4aa9-8af0-75e24eadf0f2@p25
g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:



On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
TakeFlight wrote in
news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428-
:

Put me in the "not enough info" column.

Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending
fast with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for
example.

That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules
pretty much go out the window with one of those.
not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario
that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic
retraining was * introduced right across the board after it.
Flight guidance systems were modified to account for the new
methods, so it's not really relevant.

Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a
scenario. You'v
e
just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly,
your airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say.
you increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds
back a tad. Still plent
y
in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging
your speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that
delivered that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to
your orignal pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at
the beginning. All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your
airplane. Your climb stops and then a second late
r *
you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed
washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall
warning is starting to squeak.

you gotta do something and right now. you still have some
altitude, say 40
0
feet. what do you do?

Bertie

Alt-Ctl-Del

No, wait, change my underwear.

Yoke forward, nose down and max power?

That's what the Delta guys did. And that 727 in New Orleans. A
different approach was needed and what they came up with was full
power. and in a jet that means firewall and overboost to your little
heart's contenet, and nose up as much as you can. The stall warnign
should be ringing off the wall ( we have stick shakers, but same
thing) and you keep this up til you fly out the other side of the
mess. It goes against everything we've learned but that's what they
tell us to do. There's generally some guidance form the flight
director as well. On some it's a set of yellow "antlers" that give
you best pitch and on others the pitch bar on the flight director
just gives you all the pitch info you need ( you just put the
airplane wings on a magenta bar, no brains required) note this is for
a sustained and powerful microburst and not for recovery form a tiny
bit of wind shear in a 20 knot wind.

Bertie

That's what I couldn't remember; I recalled the DFW incident (drove by
a couple of weeks after- messy) and remembered reading about the sim
duplication. Yep. Pull back would take some sim work I'd think to
ingrain something that seems so counter-intuitive.


Exactly.

So, pull back, firewall, recover, enjoy the shaking hands/knees,
change underwear. Gotcha. Oh, land, have beer.

Absolutely!

Best to stay well away form them anyway!
Oh yeah. I almost forgot, we have a computer that detects windshear and
we get an aural warning and an annunciator. All a legacy of that
accident..


Bertie

On Mar 14, 12:08*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :



On Mar 14, 11:58*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:b887a328-823a-4aa9-8af0-75e24eadf0f2@p25
g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
TakeFlight wrote in
news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428-
:

Put me in the "not enough info" column.

Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending
fast with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for
example.

That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules
pretty much go out the window with one of those.
not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario
that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic
retraining was * introduced right across the board after it.
Flight guidance systems were modified to account for the new
methods, so it's not really relevant.

Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a
scenario. You'v
e
just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly,
your airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say.
you increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds
back a tad. Still plent
y
in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging
your speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that
delivered that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to
your orignal pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at
the beginning. All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your
airplane. Your climb stops and then a second late
r *
you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed
washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall
warning is starting to squeak.

you gotta do something and right now. you still have some
altitude, say 40
0
feet. what do you do?

Bertie

Alt-Ctl-Del

No, wait, change my underwear.

Yoke forward, nose down and max power?

That's what the Delta guys did. And that 727 in New Orleans. A
different approach was needed and what they came up with was full
power. and in a jet that means firewall and overboost to your little
heart's contenet, and nose up as much as you can. The stall warnign
should be ringing off the wall ( we have stick shakers, but same
thing) and you keep this up til you fly out the other side of the
mess. It goes against everything we've learned but that's what they
tell us to do. There's generally some guidance form the flight
director as well. On some it's a set of yellow "antlers" that give
you best pitch and on others the pitch bar on the flight director
just gives you all the pitch info you need ( you just put the
airplane wings on a magenta bar, no brains required) note this is for
a sustained and powerful microburst and not for recovery form a tiny
bit of wind shear in a 20 knot wind.

Bertie

That's what I couldn't remember; I recalled the DFW incident (drove by
a couple of weeks after- messy) and remembered reading about the sim
duplication. *Yep. *Pull back would take some sim work I'd think to
ingrain something that seems so counter-intuitive.

Exactly.



So, pull back, firewall, recover, enjoy the shaking hands/knees,
change underwear. *Gotcha. Oh, land, have beer.

Absolutely!

Best to stay well away form them anyway!
Oh yeah. I almost forgot, we have a computer that detects windshear and
we get an aural warning and an annunciator. All a legacy of that
accident..

Bertie




Got me thinking about beer:30 after jumping. Sigh. Now I miss the
planes, the jumping, the women, the beer. Hanging under a ram air on
high altitude (12K) jump and floating for 20 minutes in the cool
air...unlimited visibility. Just you, the harness and 200 sqft of
nylon. Think I'll have a beer. But I do miss the flying.

writes:
That's what I couldn't remember; I recalled the DFW incident (drove by
a couple of weeks after- messy) and remembered reading about the sim
duplication. Yep. Pull back would take some sim work I'd think to
ingrain something that seems so counter-intuitive.

So, pull back, firewall, recover, enjoy the shaking hands/knees,
change underwear. Gotcha. Oh, land, have beer.

One beer? Now that's nerves of steel.

--
James Carlson, Solaris Networking
Sun Microsystems / 35 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084
MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:58:35 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

wrote in
:

On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
TakeFlight wrote in
news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428-
:

Put me in the "not enough info" column.

Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending fast
with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for example.

That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules
pretty much go out the window with one of those.
not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario
that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic
retraining was * introduced right across the board after it. Flight
guidance systems were modified to account for the new methods, so
it's not really relevant.

Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a scenario.
You'v
e
just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly, your
airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say. you
increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds back a
tad. Still plent
y
in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging your
speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that delivered
that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to your orignal
pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at the beginning.
All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your airplane. Your climb
stops and then a second late
r *
you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed
washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall warning
is starting to squeak.

you gotta do something and right now. you still have some altitude,
say 40
0
feet. what do you do?

Bertie

Alt-Ctl-Del

No, wait, change my underwear.

Yoke forward, nose down and max power?

That's what the Delta guys did. And that 727 in New Orleans. A different
approach was needed and what they came up with was full power. and in a
jet that means firewall and overboost to your little heart's contenet,
and nose up as much as you can. The stall warnign should be ringing off

Bertie, this brings up an incident I had in the Cherokee 180 many
years ago. It resulted in quite a discussion with many asserting I
didn't do the right things and quite possibly I didn't but I'd like
your input.

I was on final for 06 at our airport. It was a gusty day so I was
carrying a good 90 on final when at 300 feet the ASI basically and
abruptly went to zip and I was on the express elevator down. I'd never
seen the ASI drop to the peg like that. I knew two things. What
nature takes away in gusts she eventually gives back. The other was at
300 feet and essentially zero for IAS I'd become a lawn dart if I
shoved the nose down as I was not going to accelerate enough get
flying speed and enough energy to flare in that distance unless the
wind changed. It would have been different if the ASI had been a
little low or at least had some indication.

Of course at the first instance of sink I instinctively went full
power. The only thing I could think of at that point was to put the
plane in the best attitude for survival on impact if it didn't start
flying. The one thing I didn't want was to hit nose low. The
airspeed came back as I was entering ground effect and at that point I
was able to ease the nose down and pick up a enough speed that I made
a normal landing. Actually the landing was a good one if you didn't
count the last few hundred feet of final. :-))



the wall ( we have stick shakers, but same thing) and you keep this up
til you fly out the other side of the mess. It goes against everything
we've learned but that's what they tell us to do. There's generally some
guidance form the flight director as well. On some it's a set of yellow
"antlers" that give you best pitch and on others the pitch bar on the
flight director just gives you all the pitch info you need ( you just
put the airplane wings on a magenta bar, no brains required)
note this is for a sustained and powerful microburst and not for
recovery form a tiny bit of wind shear in a 20 knot wind.

Bertie
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote in
:
Bertie, this brings up an incident I had in the Cherokee 180 many
years ago. It resulted in quite a discussion with many asserting I
didn't do the right things and quite possibly I didn't but I'd like
your input.

I was on final for 06 at our airport. It was a gusty day so I was
carrying a good 90 on final when at 300 feet the ASI basically and
abruptly went to zip and I was on the express elevator down. I'd never
seen the ASI drop to the peg like that. I knew two things. What
nature takes away in gusts she eventually gives back. The other was at
300 feet and essentially zero for IAS I'd become a lawn dart if I
shoved the nose down as I was not going to accelerate enough get
flying speed and enough energy to flare in that distance unless the
wind changed. It would have been different if the ASI had been a
little low or at least had some indication.

Of course at the first instance of sink I instinctively went full
power. The only thing I could think of at that point was to put the
plane in the best attitude for survival on impact if it didn't start
flying. The one thing I didn't want was to hit nose low. The
airspeed came back as I was entering ground effect and at that point I
was able to ease the nose down and pick up a enough speed that I made
a normal landing. Actually the landing was a good one if you didn't
count the last few hundred feet of final. :-))

Yow! Sounds like you did the right thing to me, alright. Proof is in the
pudding of course and you got away with it, but I have to agree with you,
putting the nose down would have been disasterous. I had a similar
experience to your's in a glider which ended up with us landing short of
the field but no damage. Difficut to train for things lke this though.
Familiarity with the feel of the the airplane at and beyond the edge
obviously paid off for you, I'd say!

Bertie