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On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
TakeFlight wrote in news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428- : Put me in the "not enough info" column. Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending fast with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for example. That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules pretty much go out the window with one of those. not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic retraining was * introduced right across the board after it. Flight guidance systems were modified to account for the new methods, so it's not really relevant. Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a scenario. You've just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly, your airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say. you increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds back a tad. Still plenty in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging your speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that delivered that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to your orignal pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at the beginning. All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your airplane. Your climb stops and then a second later * you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall warning is starting to squeak. you gotta do something and right now. you still have some altitude, say 400 feet. what do you do? Bertie Alt-Ctl-Del No, wait, change my underwear. Yoke forward, nose down and max power? Richard |
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On Mar 14, 11:58*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote : On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote: TakeFlight wrote in news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428- : Put me in the "not enough info" column. Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending fast with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for example. That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules pretty much go out the window with one of those. not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic retraining was * introduced right across the board after it. Flight guidance systems were modified to account for the new methods, so it's not really relevant. Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a scenario. You'v e just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly, your airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say. you increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds back a tad. Still plent y in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging your speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that delivered that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to your orignal pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at the beginning. All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your airplane. Your climb stops and then a second late r * you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall warning is starting to squeak. you gotta do something and right now. you still have some altitude, say 40 0 feet. what do you do? Bertie Alt-Ctl-Del No, wait, change my underwear. Yoke forward, nose down and max power? That's what the Delta guys did. And that 727 in New Orleans. A different approach was needed and what they came up with was full power. and in a jet that means firewall and overboost to your little heart's contenet, and nose up as much as you can. The stall warnign should be ringing off the wall ( we have stick shakers, but same thing) and you keep this up til you fly out the other side of the mess. It goes against everything we've learned but that's what they tell us to do. There's generally some guidance form the flight director as well. On some it's a set of yellow "antlers" that give you best pitch and on others the pitch bar on the flight director just gives you all the pitch info you need ( you just put the airplane wings on a magenta bar, no brains required) note this is for a sustained and powerful microburst and not for recovery form a tiny bit of wind shear in a 20 knot wind. Bertie That's what I couldn't remember; I recalled the DFW incident (drove by a couple of weeks after- messy) and remembered reading about the sim duplication. Yep. Pull back would take some sim work I'd think to ingrain something that seems so counter-intuitive. So, pull back, firewall, recover, enjoy the shaking hands/knees, change underwear. Gotcha. Oh, land, have beer. |
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On Mar 14, 12:08*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote : On Mar 14, 11:58*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote: wrote innews:b887a328-823a-4aa9-8af0-75e24eadf0f2@p25 g2000hsf.googlegroups.com: On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote: TakeFlight wrote in news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428- : Put me in the "not enough info" column. Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending fast with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for example. That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules pretty much go out the window with one of those. not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic retraining was * introduced right across the board after it. Flight guidance systems were modified to account for the new methods, so it's not really relevant. Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a scenario. You'v e just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly, your airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say. you increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds back a tad. Still plent y in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging your speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that delivered that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to your orignal pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at the beginning. All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your airplane. Your climb stops and then a second late r * you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall warning is starting to squeak. you gotta do something and right now. you still have some altitude, say 40 0 feet. what do you do? Bertie Alt-Ctl-Del No, wait, change my underwear. Yoke forward, nose down and max power? That's what the Delta guys did. And that 727 in New Orleans. A different approach was needed and what they came up with was full power. and in a jet that means firewall and overboost to your little heart's contenet, and nose up as much as you can. The stall warnign should be ringing off the wall ( we have stick shakers, but same thing) and you keep this up til you fly out the other side of the mess. It goes against everything we've learned but that's what they tell us to do. There's generally some guidance form the flight director as well. On some it's a set of yellow "antlers" that give you best pitch and on others the pitch bar on the flight director just gives you all the pitch info you need ( you just put the airplane wings on a magenta bar, no brains required) note this is for a sustained and powerful microburst and not for recovery form a tiny bit of wind shear in a 20 knot wind. Bertie That's what I couldn't remember; I recalled the DFW incident (drove by a couple of weeks after- messy) and remembered reading about the sim duplication. *Yep. *Pull back would take some sim work I'd think to ingrain something that seems so counter-intuitive. Exactly. So, pull back, firewall, recover, enjoy the shaking hands/knees, change underwear. *Gotcha. Oh, land, have beer. Absolutely! Best to stay well away form them anyway! Oh yeah. I almost forgot, we have a computer that detects windshear and we get an aural warning and an annunciator. All a legacy of that accident.. Bertie Got me thinking about beer:30 after jumping. Sigh. Now I miss the planes, the jumping, the women, the beer. Hanging under a ram air on high altitude (12K) jump and floating for 20 minutes in the cool air...unlimited visibility. Just you, the harness and 200 sqft of nylon. Think I'll have a beer. But I do miss the flying. |
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On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 16:58:35 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote: wrote in : On Mar 14, 11:37*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote: TakeFlight wrote in news:935d6394-8224-482e-9428- : Put me in the "not enough info" column. Plane #2 could be in fact _in_ a stall (or spin), "descending fast with 50% power" or _more_. *Think Delta Flight 191, for example. That was something else entirely. That was a microburst. The rules pretty much go out the window with one of those. not to say the laws of physics are suspended, but it's a scenario that is so different from what we learn as pilots that drastic retraining was * introduced right across the board after it. Flight guidance systems were modified to account for the new methods, so it's not really relevant. Just to give you some idea of what I mean, I'll give you a scenario. You'v e just aken off and yoou're climibing away at best rate. Suddenly, your airspeed increases by a fairly large lump. 15-20 knots, say. you increase your pitcha bit to absorb it and your speed bleeds back a tad. Still plent y in hand, though. all the sudden the pitch you have is dragging your speed back and it's beginning to decrease as the wind that delivered that extra speed vanishes. You're still OK and back to your orignal pitch and have a couple of knots more than you had at the beginning. All the sudden, the bottom falls out of your airplane. Your climb stops and then a second late r * you begin to sink, and fast. another second or two and your speed washes off even further and now you're sinkng and your stall warning is starting to squeak. you gotta do something and right now. you still have some altitude, say 40 0 feet. what do you do? Bertie Alt-Ctl-Del No, wait, change my underwear. Yoke forward, nose down and max power? That's what the Delta guys did. And that 727 in New Orleans. A different approach was needed and what they came up with was full power. and in a jet that means firewall and overboost to your little heart's contenet, and nose up as much as you can. The stall warnign should be ringing off Bertie, this brings up an incident I had in the Cherokee 180 many years ago. It resulted in quite a discussion with many asserting I didn't do the right things and quite possibly I didn't but I'd like your input. I was on final for 06 at our airport. It was a gusty day so I was carrying a good 90 on final when at 300 feet the ASI basically and abruptly went to zip and I was on the express elevator down. I'd never seen the ASI drop to the peg like that. I knew two things. What nature takes away in gusts she eventually gives back. The other was at 300 feet and essentially zero for IAS I'd become a lawn dart if I shoved the nose down as I was not going to accelerate enough get flying speed and enough energy to flare in that distance unless the wind changed. It would have been different if the ASI had been a little low or at least had some indication. Of course at the first instance of sink I instinctively went full power. The only thing I could think of at that point was to put the plane in the best attitude for survival on impact if it didn't start flying. The one thing I didn't want was to hit nose low. The airspeed came back as I was entering ground effect and at that point I was able to ease the nose down and pick up a enough speed that I made a normal landing. Actually the landing was a good one if you didn't count the last few hundred feet of final. :-)) the wall ( we have stick shakers, but same thing) and you keep this up til you fly out the other side of the mess. It goes against everything we've learned but that's what they tell us to do. There's generally some guidance form the flight director as well. On some it's a set of yellow "antlers" that give you best pitch and on others the pitch bar on the flight director just gives you all the pitch info you need ( you just put the airplane wings on a magenta bar, no brains required) note this is for a sustained and powerful microburst and not for recovery form a tiny bit of wind shear in a 20 knot wind. Bertie Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair) www.rogerhalstead.com |
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Roger wrote in
: Bertie, this brings up an incident I had in the Cherokee 180 many years ago. It resulted in quite a discussion with many asserting I didn't do the right things and quite possibly I didn't but I'd like your input. I was on final for 06 at our airport. It was a gusty day so I was carrying a good 90 on final when at 300 feet the ASI basically and abruptly went to zip and I was on the express elevator down. I'd never seen the ASI drop to the peg like that. I knew two things. What nature takes away in gusts she eventually gives back. The other was at 300 feet and essentially zero for IAS I'd become a lawn dart if I shoved the nose down as I was not going to accelerate enough get flying speed and enough energy to flare in that distance unless the wind changed. It would have been different if the ASI had been a little low or at least had some indication. Of course at the first instance of sink I instinctively went full power. The only thing I could think of at that point was to put the plane in the best attitude for survival on impact if it didn't start flying. The one thing I didn't want was to hit nose low. The airspeed came back as I was entering ground effect and at that point I was able to ease the nose down and pick up a enough speed that I made a normal landing. Actually the landing was a good one if you didn't count the last few hundred feet of final. :-)) Yow! Sounds like you did the right thing to me, alright. Proof is in the pudding of course and you got away with it, but I have to agree with you, putting the nose down would have been disasterous. I had a similar experience to your's in a glider which ended up with us landing short of the field but no damage. Difficut to train for things lke this though. Familiarity with the feel of the the airplane at and beyond the edge obviously paid off for you, I'd say! Bertie |
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