Stalls and Thoughts

Robert Moore wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote

Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not
enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

You're kidding, right? Better stick to light plane flight instructing
Dudley. I sure don't see the F-100 pilot anywhere near critical mach
speed. THAT was NOT a case of "coffin corner".

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Coffin corner (aviation)
The coffin corner or Q-Corner is the altitude at or near which an
aircraft's stall speed is equal to the critical Mach number, at a given
gross weight and G loading. At this altitude the aircraft becomes nearly
impossible to keep in stable flight. Since the stall speed is the
minimum speed required to maintain level flight, any reduction in speed
will cause the airplane to stall and lose altitude. Since the critical
Mach number is maximum speed at which air can travel over the wings
without losing lift to flow separation and shock waves, any increase in
speed will cause the airplane to lose lift, or to pitch heavily nose-
down, and lose altitude. The "corner" refers to the triangular shape at
the top of a flight envelope chart where the stall speed and critical
Mach number lines come together. Some aircraft, such as the Lockheed U-
2, routinely operate in the "coffin corner", which demands great skill
from their pilots.[1]


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Slow flight
Slow flight is a portion of an airplane's performance envelope above the
speed at which the plane will stall, but below the aircraft's endurance
speed. This part of the performance chart is also known as "the back
side of the power curve" because when flying in this area, more power is
required in order to go slower and still maintain straight and level
flight. A large angle of attack is required in order to maintain the
altitude of the aircraft.

Bob Moore
For God's sake Moore, try actually READING these posts before shooting
off your mouth once in a while. Our mutual dislike for each other is
legendary by now.
As usual, you are beating a dead horse here. Coffin corner is explained
in full in several posts above.
The use of the term is correct in BOTH instances!

--
Dudley Henriques

Where did you come to the conclusion it was correct in both cases? I just
said I am not surprised the term got "high jacked. and it wouldn't be the
first time" Meaning, incorrectly. I've just never heard it being used
associated with the back of the power curve in 50 years of aviation that's
all. Could have missed it. Love to see some real documentation.

--
BobF.
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Robert Moore wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote
Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate can't be
stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not
enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.
You're kidding, right? Better stick to light plane flight instructing
Dudley. I sure don't see the F-100 pilot anywhere near critical mach
speed. THAT was NOT a case of "coffin corner".

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Coffin corner (aviation)
The coffin corner or Q-Corner is the altitude at or near which an
aircraft's stall speed is equal to the critical Mach number, at a given
gross weight and G loading. At this altitude the aircraft becomes nearly
impossible to keep in stable flight. Since the stall speed is the minimum
speed required to maintain level flight, any reduction in speed will
cause the airplane to stall and lose altitude. Since the critical Mach
number is maximum speed at which air can travel over the wings without
losing lift to flow separation and shock waves, any increase in speed
will cause the airplane to lose lift, or to pitch heavily nose-
down, and lose altitude. The "corner" refers to the triangular shape at
the top of a flight envelope chart where the stall speed and critical
Mach number lines come together. Some aircraft, such as the Lockheed U-
2, routinely operate in the "coffin corner", which demands great skill
from their pilots.[1]


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Slow flight
Slow flight is a portion of an airplane's performance envelope above the
speed at which the plane will stall, but below the aircraft's endurance
speed. This part of the performance chart is also known as "the back side
of the power curve" because when flying in this area, more power is
required in order to go slower and still maintain straight and level
flight. A large angle of attack is required in order to maintain the
altitude of the aircraft.

Bob Moore
For God's sake Moore, try actually READING these posts before shooting off
your mouth once in a while. Our mutual dislike for each other is legendary
by now.
As usual, you are beating a dead horse here. Coffin corner is explained in
full in several posts above.
The use of the term is correct in BOTH instances!

--
Dudley Henriques

Bob F. wrote:
Where did you come to the conclusion it was correct in both cases? I
just said I am not surprised the term got "high jacked. and it wouldn't
be the first time" Meaning, incorrectly. I've just never heard it
being used associated with the back of the power curve in 50 years of
aviation that's all. Could have missed it. Love to see some real
documentation.

You might or might not not find documentation. The first time I heard it
was in connection with the F100 crash at Edwards. I've heard it since
used by several sources when discussing landing accidents involving low
and slow approach profiles.
I'm sure it probably was hijacked as you have said. If you will notice,
I used it only to describe the condition of a behind the curve
airspeed, high sink rate, not enough altitude to recover without
reducing angle of attack approach profile. I could have used another
term. I choose coffin corner. It was you who chimed in with the
'official definition" which I know quite well.
I never meant to imply anything else.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in news:7JGdnS1ILaP_
:

Bob F. wrote:
Where did you come to the conclusion it was correct in both cases? I
just said I am not surprised the term got "high jacked. and it wouldn't
be the first time" Meaning, incorrectly. I've just never heard it
being used associated with the back of the power curve in 50 years of
aviation that's all. Could have missed it. Love to see some real
documentation.

You might or might not not find documentation. The first time I heard it
was in connection with the F100 crash at Edwards. I've heard it since
used by several sources when discussing landing accidents involving low
and slow approach profiles.

Well, like "dragging it in" it's not exactly a tech term. But it's origins
are in the shape of the envelope and relate to mach buffet problems
associated with high alt flight. It's poorly understood, even by most
airline pilots, and frequently misused, usually as a modrn equivelent of
"there be dragons there" for all sorts of things that happen around the
edges of all sorts of flight envelopes. I've heard a chopper guy use it to
describe the lead lag roll they get when they go too fast, for instance.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:7JGdnS1ILaP_
:

Bob F. wrote:
Where did you come to the conclusion it was correct in both cases? I
just said I am not surprised the term got "high jacked. and it wouldn't
be the first time" Meaning, incorrectly. I've just never heard it
being used associated with the back of the power curve in 50 years of
aviation that's all. Could have missed it. Love to see some real
documentation.

You might or might not not find documentation. The first time I heard it
was in connection with the F100 crash at Edwards. I've heard it since
used by several sources when discussing landing accidents involving low
and slow approach profiles.

Well, like "dragging it in" it's not exactly a tech term. But it's origins
are in the shape of the envelope and relate to mach buffet problems
associated with high alt flight. It's poorly understood, even by most
airline pilots, and frequently misused, usually as a modrn equivelent of
"there be dragons there" for all sorts of things that happen around the
edges of all sorts of flight envelopes. I've heard a chopper guy use it to
describe the lead lag roll they get when they go too fast, for instance.


Bertie
Perhaps I misread the poster's question. he stated as follows;

The Sargon wrote and I answered;
"I am curious as to the meaning of the phrase "..dragging it in". As
in "...he turned on final, dragging it in".

Perhaps I'm nuts, but I took this wording to be referring to an
approach, not the high altitude scenario :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:7JGdnS1ILaP_
:

Bob F. wrote:
Where did you come to the conclusion it was correct in both cases?
I just said I am not surprised the term got "high jacked. and it
wouldn't be the first time" Meaning, incorrectly. I've just never
heard it being used associated with the back of the power curve in
50 years of aviation that's all. Could have missed it. Love to
see some real documentation.

You might or might not not find documentation. The first time I
heard it was in connection with the F100 crash at Edwards. I've
heard it since used by several sources when discussing landing
accidents involving low and slow approach profiles.

Well, like "dragging it in" it's not exactly a tech term. But it's
origins are in the shape of the envelope and relate to mach buffet
problems associated with high alt flight. It's poorly understood,
even by most airline pilots, and frequently misused, usually as a
modrn equivelent of "there be dragons there" for all sorts of things
that happen around the edges of all sorts of flight envelopes. I've
heard a chopper guy use it to describe the lead lag roll they get
when they go too fast, for instance.


Bertie
Perhaps I misread the poster's question. he stated as follows;

The Sargon wrote and I answered;
"I am curious as to the meaning of the phrase "..dragging it in". As
in "...he turned on final, dragging it in".

Perhaps I'm nuts, but I took this wording to be referring to an
approach, not the high altitude scenario :-))


Yeh, the coffin corner thing is high alt.


Bertie