Stalls and Thoughts

"Bob F." wrote in
news
Yes, you learn a lot about Dutch rolls real quick. ...and I did
experience a elevator hydraulic cylinder stall once in a 707. That
was an experience.


Ouch. I didn't know they had hydraulics on the elevator. I thought the 707
was all tab control except the rudder.
I had a pitch problem in an A300 at about FL190 once. That was pretty
exciting, but since it was the automatics that caused it we were able to
disconnnect and get it all back under control. Scared the crap out of us.
We thought we had something on the airframe come loose and cause the pitch
problems. Nothing else made sense until we got down and maintenence
diagnosed the problem. We got a mach buffet recovering (2.5 G) but of
course that part of it wasnt too dramatic because of the relatively low
altitude. It would have been a different story at 330 ( the 'Bus was not
good at altitude)


Bertie

Right, right...it is actually controlled by tabs, my slip. Boy, not many
know that either, I'll bet. Anyway, if you pull too hard, they stall, that
is won't move, So you have to relax the back pressure almost completely and
then pull not so hard the next time. Weird feeling when you are descending,
trying to check altitude quickly, and don't know what's happening.
--
BobF.
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
"Bob F." wrote in
news
Yes, you learn a lot about Dutch rolls real quick. ...and I did
experience a elevator hydraulic cylinder stall once in a 707. That
was an experience.


Ouch. I didn't know they had hydraulics on the elevator. I thought the 707
was all tab control except the rudder.
I had a pitch problem in an A300 at about FL190 once. That was pretty
exciting, but since it was the automatics that caused it we were able to
disconnnect and get it all back under control. Scared the crap out of us.
We thought we had something on the airframe come loose and cause the pitch
problems. Nothing else made sense until we got down and maintenence
diagnosed the problem. We got a mach buffet recovering (2.5 G) but of
course that part of it wasnt too dramatic because of the relatively low
altitude. It would have been a different story at 330 ( the 'Bus was not
good at altitude)


Bertie

"Bob F." wrote in
:

Right, right...it is actually controlled by tabs, my slip. Boy, not
many know that either, I'll bet. Anyway, if you pull too hard, they
stall, that is won't move, So you have to relax the back pressure
almost completely and then pull not so hard the next time. Weird
feeling when you are descending, trying to check altitude quickly, and
don't know what's happening.

i retrained a lot of 707 guys on the 727 and the 'Bus and they had the
weirdest way of flying! They'd start to interecept an altitude with
thousands of feet to go sometime. They also used to just about have a heart
attack if you used the speedbrake.

Bertie

I remember that, there was a reason for it. It'll come to me and I'll have
to get back. It had something to do with persistent or repetitive negative
G, or always maintaining positive G for cabin integrity over time...or
something like that. It's funny because you train people to do things and
sometime don't teach them the reasons why.

--
BobF.
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
"Bob F." wrote in
:

Right, right...it is actually controlled by tabs, my slip. Boy, not
many know that either, I'll bet. Anyway, if you pull too hard, they
stall, that is won't move, So you have to relax the back pressure
almost completely and then pull not so hard the next time. Weird
feeling when you are descending, trying to check altitude quickly, and
don't know what's happening.

i retrained a lot of 707 guys on the 727 and the 'Bus and they had the
weirdest way of flying! They'd start to interecept an altitude with
thousands of feet to go sometime. They also used to just about have a
heart
attack if you used the speedbrake.

Bertie

"Bob F." wrote in
:

I remember that, there was a reason for it. It'll come to me and I'll
have to get back. It had something to do with persistent or
repetitive negative G, or always maintaining positive G for cabin
integrity over time...or something like that. It's funny because you
train people to do things and sometime don't teach them the reasons
why.


No more so than these days. My 757 course was a joke, really. I think it
took about ten minutes to do the engine module and maybe twenty to do the
fuel system, for instance. They don;t want us to play with anything
anymore. On the plus side, the new airplanes fly just like airplanes. Spool
up times are almost as fast as pistons, they're speed stable on approach,
the controls are light. They have real good power/weight. IOW, they're for
kids.




Bertie

Did you take any of the classes at Boeing? I used to teach the FMCS and
EICAS portions in some of the classes. We used to say in the 777 classes
that when the pilots retire, they won't be able to fly worth a damn but they
will be able to type at 90 WPM. :-)

--
BobF.
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
"Bob F." wrote in
:

I remember that, there was a reason for it. It'll come to me and I'll
have to get back. It had something to do with persistent or
repetitive negative G, or always maintaining positive G for cabin
integrity over time...or something like that. It's funny because you
train people to do things and sometime don't teach them the reasons
why.


No more so than these days. My 757 course was a joke, really. I think it
took about ten minutes to do the engine module and maybe twenty to do the
fuel system, for instance. They don;t want us to play with anything
anymore. On the plus side, the new airplanes fly just like airplanes.
Spool
up times are almost as fast as pistons, they're speed stable on approach,
the controls are light. They have real good power/weight. IOW, they're for
kids.




Bertie

"Bob F." wrote in
:

Did you take any of the classes at Boeing? I used to teach the FMCS
and EICAS portions in some of the classes. We used to say in the 777
classes that when the pilots retire, they won't be able to fly worth a
damn but they will be able to type at 90 WPM. :-)

Yeh. I've heard that one alright. I tend to use FLCH a lot myself!

Nope, never done a course in Seattle. All in house stuff. I did a factory
course in Toulouse once, though. Aeroformation ( their training company)
didn't want us to know more than what was necessary, but I had an ex French
Air force instructor who knew his business who would tell you anything you
wanted to know. Very good.
I may be about to change types, so I might be out there yet!



Bertie

On Mar 15, 7:57*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Bob F." wrote innews
Yes, you learn a lot about Dutch rolls real quick. *...and I did
experience a elevator hydraulic cylinder stall once in a 707. *That
was an experience.

Ouch. I didn't know they had hydraulics on the elevator. I thought the 707 *
was all tab control except the rudder.
I had a pitch problem in an A300 at about FL190 once. That was pretty
exciting, but since it was the automatics that caused it we were able to
disconnnect and get it all back under control. Scared the crap out of us.
We thought we had something on the airframe come loose and cause the pitch
problems. Nothing else made sense until we got down and maintenence
diagnosed the problem. We got a mach buffet recovering (2.5 G) but of
course that part of it wasnt too dramatic because of the relatively low
altitude. It would have been a different story at 330 ( the 'Bus was not
good at altitude)

Bertie

2.5 G ... that would be something new in the passenger cabin. Get any
screams or spilt coke?

Speaking of g and jets, what kind of g loads can airliners like 707,
727, 737, and then the really big ones take?

wrote in
:

On Mar 15, 7:57*pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Bob F." wrote
innewsradndOZJqc580HanZ2dnUVZ_qOk
:

Yes, you learn a lot about Dutch rolls real quick. *...and I did
experience a elevator hydraulic cylinder stall once in a 707. *That
was an experience.

Ouch. I didn't know they had hydraulics on the elevator. I thought
the 707
*
was all tab control except the rudder.
I had a pitch problem in an A300 at about FL190 once. That was pretty
exciting, but since it was the automatics that caused it we were able
to disconnnect and get it all back under control. Scared the crap out
of us. We thought we had something on the airframe come loose and
cause the pitch

problems. Nothing else made sense until we got down and maintenence
diagnosed the problem. We got a mach buffet recovering (2.5 G) but of
course that part of it wasnt too dramatic because of the relatively
low altitude. It would have been a different story at 330 ( the 'Bus
was not good at altitude)

Bertie

2.5 G ... that would be something new in the passenger cabin. Get any
screams or spilt coke?


Nope, no pax on that flight.

the airplane had just come off a heavy check. A 'D' Check which is nigh
on a complete rebuild. It was a cluster**** of certification, paperwork
and miscomunication that caused the problems. For one thing the airplane
had had a complete refit of all it's control surface bearings, and i had
known that which is what made me think we had airframe damage. The guy
who had tested it after the rebuild had discovered that the stal warning
system and alpha floor protection ( automatics that engage the
autothrottles and apply power regardless of what you want) was firing
off too early.
All this hapened to us on this flight and then some. The power came on
and the nose pitched up fairly quickly ( because of the underslung
engines) the pitch trim failed simultaneously which allowed the nose to
come up even more. The FO was flying but I took it and disconnected the
autoflight and put the nose down. Out intercept alt of FL 190 was coming
up quick so I pulled ( doing over 260 indicated) and the nose came up
very quickly due to the stab trim being wildly out for the speed. That's
when we got the buffet. Analysis of the FDR after determined the G and
flight profile. Airbus tried to blame me but actually caught hell for
inadequate flight testing both during certifiaction and failure to
rectify reported faults from the D check flight test.

Speaking of g and jets, what kind of g loads can airliners like 707,
727, 737, and then the really big ones take?

Certified limits are +2.5 , -1.0 clean and +2.0 and 0.0 with flaps out.
I believe it's the smae for all jet transoprts. They'll come apart after
that. Scary, eh?
The airplane needed to be checked for damage after this exposure, but
there was none.


Bertie