Stalls and Thoughts

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely
correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not
enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?

Peter Clark wrote in
:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely
correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not
enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?

Kind of , but the bottom side isn;t exactly a stall, it's also a mach
buffet. the main distinction being it happens at a higher than normally
indicated airspeed, and more crucially, a lesser angle of attack. The net
effect is the same, but it's important to distinguish between the two since
the picture when it happens is substantially different.

Just in case any of you guys are thinking of a VLJ.


Bertie

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:25:24 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse

However: ormal and short field landin gin the Bo...F33, Deb, and A36
(IF flown according to the POH) are all at well less than maximum
endurance. This is far from dragging it in which was giving the ASF
fits about "dragging it in for short field landings" which are flown
well under max endurance speed, but are "steep". The short field is
just steeper with more power. However in neither case should the
plane be in the so called coffin corner as there is enough reserve
power to stop the descent without lowering the nose. That is even
flying a very steep short field approach.
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely
correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.

Any of the Bo's get really squirley when flown this way and for a
competent pilot will provide suficient warning, but I'd sure not want
to get one that slow any where on final as that sucker is so close
to stalling the unwary could quickly ruin their insurance companie's
day.

For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not

That was one impressive film strip. Although it w asn't long it sure
seemed that way. He did one whale of a job balancing on the tail until
she finally fell over to the left as I recall. When I say balancing
on the tail, for those who haven't seen the video/film clip he wasn't
just nose high.

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

Which reminds me, I saw a clip of a 104 where I believe the engine
seized. It started to skid sideways and then *flipped" over onto its
top. Do you know the story behind that?

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:25:24 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely

Well, time to try again. I had this ready to go and the computer ate
it.

When flying a Debonair, F-33, and A36 Bo by the POH all landings are
done well below the max endurance speed, but not to the point where
they don't have enough reserve power to arrest or even change the
descent into a climb. They are however in the area where power
controls rate of descent and pitch controls speed.

correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not

I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?


I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:25:24 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely

Well, time to try again. I had this ready to go and the computer ate
it.

When flying a Debonair, F-33, and A36 Bo by the POH all landings are
done well below the max endurance speed, but not to the point where
they don't have enough reserve power to arrest or even change the
descent into a climb. They are however in the area where power
controls rate of descent and pitch controls speed.

correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.
For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not

I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

I think it's in the pilot's code that we're not allowed to say the
airplane flipped over on it's "top" :-))))

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 16, 7:31 pm, Roger wrote:
....
I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.

I think some tape of that incident was used in this movie,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048364/

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?

I have a clip from "Planes of Flame", where the 104
is tangled in an arrestor net, yaws left, then rolls over
right that looked messy. Is that the clip you mean?
Ken

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:e7b02c3d-eb33-4b04-
:

On Mar 16, 7:31 pm, Roger wrote:
...
I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.

I think some tape of that incident was used in this movie,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048364/

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?

I have a clip from "Planes of Flame", where the 104
is tangled in an arrestor net, yaws left, then rolls over
right that looked messy. Is that the clip you mean?
Ken

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

A whole post where you didn't say anything idiotic. this must be a first,
kennie!


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:e7b02c3d-eb33-4b04-
:

On Mar 16, 7:31 pm, Roger wrote:
...
I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.
I think some tape of that incident was used in this movie,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048364/

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.
I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?
I have a clip from "Planes of Flame", where the 104
is tangled in an arrestor net, yaws left, then rolls over
right that looked messy. Is that the clip you mean?
Ken

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

A whole post where you didn't say anything idiotic. this must be a first,
kennie!


Bertie
There does seem to be some improvement here. :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 16, 8:45 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in news:e7b02c3d-eb33-4b04-
:

On Mar 16, 7:31 pm, Roger wrote:
...
I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand pounds
more thrust.
I think some tape of that incident was used in this movie,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048364/

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.
I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped over
on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any thought?
I have a clip from "Planes of Flame", where the 104
is tangled in an arrestor net, yaws left, then rolls over
right that looked messy. Is that the clip you mean?
Ken

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

A whole post where you didn't say anything idiotic. this must be a first,
kennie!
Bertie

****-OFF QUEER

There does seem to be some improvement here. :-)
Dudley Henriques

DITTO

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
:

On Mar 16, 8:45 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
news:e7b02c3d-eb33-4b04-
:

On Mar 16, 7:31 pm, Roger wrote:
...
I saw the video and he did one whale of a job balancing on the
thrust/tail until he lost it. He just needed a few thousand
pounds more thrust.
I think some tape of that incident was used in this movie,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048364/

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied
full burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction
of angle of attack was what he needed and he didn't have the
room. THIS is the definition of coffin corner and it most
certainly IS in the area of reverse command.
I saw a clip of a 104 that was skidding sideways and then flipped
over on its top. I believe the engine seized on that one. any
thought?
I have a clip from "Planes of Flame", where the 104
is tangled in an arrestor net, yaws left, then rolls over
right that looked messy. Is that the clip you mean?
Ken

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

A whole post where you didn't say anything idiotic. this must be a
first, kennie!
Bertie

****-OFF QUEER

That's more like it k00kie boi.

There does seem to be some improvement here. :-)
Dudley Henriques

DITTO


Ooow! I sense some insecurity here. Want to talk about it, Kennie?

Go on, you know you want to.


Bertie