Now that jet ownership is so inexpensive...

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:28:16 -0500, Dallas wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:03:01 -0400, WJRFlyBoy wrote:

Which begs the economic question when does the VLJ (lite versions coming
~ Eclipse ECJ) cross the expense analysis with a high end twin?

It already has crossed, at least in terms of the Eclipse - not no much so
for other models.


Last time I looked, a Baron 58 would set you back $1.2 million... so there
ya go.

I was thinking more than the simple acquisition costs (additional pilot
training, maintenace, fuel, insurances)
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!
I hesitate to add to this discussion because I'm not an instructor,
just a rather slow student who's not qualified to give advice that
might kill someone.

On Mar 13, 8:29*pm, "gatt" wrote:
From the article "Owning a Private Jet is Cheap" *athttp://ezinearticles..com/?Owning-a-Private-Jet-is-Cheap&id=1007987:

"Owning your own jet may not be as unrealistic as you may have thought.
There are now thousands of business executives, athletes, and celebrities
flying their own personal jets every day. The idea of having this personal
mode of transportation is no longer for just the billionaires and world
leaders.

....A small jet that could carry 4-8 passengers would usually cost between
$3 to $4 million dollars about a decade ago, but now it could be yours for
roughly $1 million."

DUDE! *I had no idea that for a measily million dollars I wouldn't have to
stand in line at the airport! * * I wonder how much I could get for my jeep,
my boat, my house, my retirement, my kidney... *...no, I probably need that
to pass the physical to fly the jet... * * * * What has the entire American
middle class and the other 98% of the world been THINKING, man? *Jets are
CHEAP!

"Next time you are on a crowded plane and looking down at your small cup of
soda and the ridiculously small portion of old pretzels, just remember you
could be flying in style in your own relatively affordable jet."

Here's an even more reasonable idea: *Buy half a million dollars of pretzels
and soda and use the other half million for air travel. *That way, you'll
always have pretzels and soda.

-c

I hope all these people like being flown around because there is no
way the insurance companies are going to let these people fly their
own planes.

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:12:31 -0400, WJRFlyBoy
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:28:16 -0500, Dallas wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:03:01 -0400, WJRFlyBoy wrote:

Which begs the economic question when does the VLJ (lite versions coming
~ Eclipse ECJ) cross the expense analysis with a high end twin?

It already has crossed, at least in terms of the Eclipse - not no much so
for other models.


Last time I looked, a Baron 58 would set you back $1.2 million... so there
ya go.

I was thinking more than the simple acquisition costs (additional pilot
training, maintenace, fuel, insurances)

It's not a jet, but still turbine powered and about twice the cost of
some VLJs but...When I was looking at a TBM-700 insurance was $25,000
a year, At the time I was instrument rated with a tad over a 1000
hours, but no turbine time. The VLJs are a little faster, but as I
recall, not a great deal.

Insurance requirements we 200 hours dual after the two week company
training course and recurrency training twice a year.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:49:08 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:12:31 -0400, WJRFlyBoy
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:28:16 -0500, Dallas wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:03:01 -0400, WJRFlyBoy wrote:

Which begs the economic question when does the VLJ (lite versions coming
~ Eclipse ECJ) cross the expense analysis with a high end twin?

It already has crossed, at least in terms of the Eclipse - not no much so
for other models.


Last time I looked, a Baron 58 would set you back $1.2 million... so there
ya go.

I was thinking more than the simple acquisition costs (additional pilot
training, maintenace, fuel, insurances)

It's not a jet, but still turbine powered and about twice the cost of
some VLJs but...When I was looking at a TBM-700 insurance was $25,000
a year, At the time I was instrument rated with a tad over a 1000
hours, but no turbine time. The VLJs are a little faster, but as I
recall, not a great deal.

Insurance requirements we 200 hours dual after the two week company
training course and recurrency training twice a year.

200 hours dual? Wow. I'd find a new agent who can negotiate with the
insurance companies, I would have expected 50 or less for 1000 TT.

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 17:21:32 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:49:08 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:12:31 -0400, WJRFlyBoy
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:28:16 -0500, Dallas wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:03:01 -0400, WJRFlyBoy wrote:

Which begs the economic question when does the VLJ (lite versions coming
~ Eclipse ECJ) cross the expense analysis with a high end twin?

It already has crossed, at least in terms of the Eclipse - not no much so
for other models.


Last time I looked, a Baron 58 would set you back $1.2 million... so there
ya go.

I was thinking more than the simple acquisition costs (additional pilot
training, maintenace, fuel, insurances)

It's not a jet, but still turbine powered and about twice the cost of
some VLJs but...When I was looking at a TBM-700 insurance was $25,000
a year, At the time I was instrument rated with a tad over a 1000
hours, but no turbine time. The VLJs are a little faster, but as I
recall, not a great deal.

Insurance requirements we 200 hours dual after the two week company
training course and recurrency training twice a year.

200 hours dual? Wow. I'd find a new agent who can negotiate with the
insurance companies, I would have expected 50 or less for 1000 TT.

Zero turbine time, zero flight level time, and at about half the
speed. When figured on insurance per aircraft dollar that was cheap.
Most SEL owners are probably paying about 2 1/2 times that ratio.

I cold have cut the time down for higher rates. If you gotta spend
the money you might as well get some good training out of it. Today
with less than 1000 TT but all in high performance, complex, retract
you'd be lucky to pay twice that IF you could get insurance at all.
Stop and think of the new hull value.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 04:27:49 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 17:21:32 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:49:08 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:12:31 -0400, WJRFlyBoy
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:28:16 -0500, Dallas wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 21:03:01 -0400, WJRFlyBoy wrote:

Which begs the economic question when does the VLJ (lite versions coming
~ Eclipse ECJ) cross the expense analysis with a high end twin?

It already has crossed, at least in terms of the Eclipse - not no much so
for other models.


Last time I looked, a Baron 58 would set you back $1.2 million... so there
ya go.

I was thinking more than the simple acquisition costs (additional pilot
training, maintenace, fuel, insurances)

It's not a jet, but still turbine powered and about twice the cost of
some VLJs but...When I was looking at a TBM-700 insurance was $25,000
a year, At the time I was instrument rated with a tad over a 1000
hours, but no turbine time. The VLJs are a little faster, but as I
recall, not a great deal.

Insurance requirements we 200 hours dual after the two week company
training course and recurrency training twice a year.

200 hours dual? Wow. I'd find a new agent who can negotiate with the
insurance companies, I would have expected 50 or less for 1000 TT.

Zero turbine time, zero flight level time, and at about half the
speed. When figured on insurance per aircraft dollar that was cheap.
Most SEL owners are probably paying about 2 1/2 times that ratio.

I cold have cut the time down for higher rates. If you gotta spend
the money you might as well get some good training out of it. Today
with less than 1000 TT but all in high performance, complex, retract
you'd be lucky to pay twice that IF you could get insurance at all.
Stop and think of the new hull value.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Well, I have similar numbers and have Malibu time, but wasn't anywhere
near 200 hours for transitioning into the Malibu, and was quoted just
over 12% of your transition time for getting from there into a
Meridian. Obviously each case is different but 200 hours seems
somewhat high to me. The pricing and recurrant training wasn't what
shocked me, just the transition time.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 04:27:49 -0400, Roger wrote:

Last time I looked, a Baron 58 would set you back $1.2 million... so there
ya go.

I was thinking more than the simple acquisition costs (additional pilot
training, maintenace, fuel, insurances)

It's not a jet, but still turbine powered and about twice the cost of
some VLJs but...When I was looking at a TBM-700 insurance was $25,000
a year, At the time I was instrument rated with a tad over a 1000
hours, but no turbine time. The VLJs are a little faster, but as I
recall, not a great deal.

Insurance requirements we 200 hours dual after the two week company
training course and recurrency training twice a year.

200 hours dual? Wow. I'd find a new agent who can negotiate with the
insurance companies, I would have expected 50 or less for 1000 TT.

Zero turbine time, zero flight level time, and at about half the
speed. When figured on insurance per aircraft dollar that was cheap.
Most SEL owners are probably paying about 2 1/2 times that ratio.

I cold have cut the time down for higher rates. If you gotta spend
the money you might as well get some good training out of it. Today
with less than 1000 TT but all in high performance, complex, retract
you'd be lucky to pay twice that IF you could get insurance at all.
Stop and think of the new hull value.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)

Is there any reductions in premium cost during the policy term as flight
hours accumulate in a particular type (of VLJ)?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!
I hesitate to add to this discussion because I'm not an instructor,
just a rather slow student who's not qualified to give advice that
might kill someone.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 06:55:35 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:



Well, I have similar numbers and have Malibu time, but wasn't anywhere
near 200 hours for transitioning into the Malibu, and was quoted just
over 12% of your transition time for getting from there into a
Meridian. Obviously each case is different but 200 hours seems
somewhat high to me. The pricing and recurrant training wasn't what
shocked me, just the transition time.

Malibu turboprop versio? Even then the Mirage is less than half the
price of the TBM-700 (now the 850) which has a cruise over 300 knots.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:06:24 -0400, WJRFlyBoy
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 04:27:49 -0400, Roger wrote:

Last time I looked, a Baron 58 would set you back $1.2 million... so there
ya go.

I was thinking more than the simple acquisition costs (additional pilot
training, maintenace, fuel, insurances)

It's not a jet, but still turbine powered and about twice the cost of
some VLJs but...When I was looking at a TBM-700 insurance was $25,000
a year, At the time I was instrument rated with a tad over a 1000
hours, but no turbine time. The VLJs are a little faster, but as I
recall, not a great deal.

Insurance requirements we 200 hours dual after the two week company
training course and recurrency training twice a year.

200 hours dual? Wow. I'd find a new agent who can negotiate with the
insurance companies, I would have expected 50 or less for 1000 TT.

Zero turbine time, zero flight level time, and at about half the
speed. When figured on insurance per aircraft dollar that was cheap.
Most SEL owners are probably paying about 2 1/2 times that ratio.

I cold have cut the time down for higher rates. If you gotta spend
the money you might as well get some good training out of it. Today
with less than 1000 TT but all in high performance, complex, retract
you'd be lucky to pay twice that IF you could get insurance at all.
Stop and think of the new hull value.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)

Is there any reductions in premium cost during the policy term as flight
hours accumulate in a particular type (of VLJ)?

I don't know of any policy where the premium is reduced during the
term, but most are reduced at renewal when specific minimums are
reached. On mine the numbers change for 600 hours high performance
retract, and some where around there for total time. Both run about
15% while the instrument rating is good for 5% For someone to fly the
Deb who is not a named pilot now requires 700 high performance,
complex, retract, 1000 TT, 20 or 25 make and model, and an instrument
rating. I don't remember the number but consistent recurrency
training also is good for a discount. Although the numbers would be
different I'd expect the same sort of arrangement with the VLJs and
turboprops. "I'd guess" 1200 hours TT and maybe 600 (give or take)
for turbine time. There's even the possibility for requiring the
commercial rating.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:46:32 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 06:55:35 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:



Well, I have similar numbers and have Malibu time, but wasn't anywhere
near 200 hours for transitioning into the Malibu, and was quoted just
over 12% of your transition time for getting from there into a
Meridian. Obviously each case is different but 200 hours seems
somewhat high to me. The pricing and recurrant training wasn't what
shocked me, just the transition time.

Malibu turboprop versio? Even then the Mirage is less than half the
price of the TBM-700 (now the 850) which has a cruise over 300 knots.

Yea, the PT6 Malibu (with some other changes). Again, the price of
the insurance wasn't what surprised me, and the Meridian has a book
260TAS cruise (most appear to set power to cruise at 250TAS). Hull is
rarely the most expensive part of a policy anyway.