Getting confused with ATC order...Violation?

george wrote:
On Apr 7, 4:11 pm, Jim Logajan wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 03:14:28 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

Fake Mx Post.

An mx sim huh

Check the Path headers - the forged post appearing to come from me came
from albasani.net. My posts originate from Supernews.

Note that the forger has just enough knowledge of Usenet to not use Google
Groups, which includes an NNTP-Posting-Host header.

On Apr 4, 6:41*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:
Other than you don't have airplanes, big birds, loose balloons and other
assorted objects appearing out of nowhere, the aircraft isn't bouncing
around in turbulance while you try to maintain attitude and altitude,
there are no other people in the aircraft trying to talk to you,
there is a pause button so you can take a leak anytime you need to,
and there are no real world consequences to any of your actions, it is
just like the real thing.

Most of these things have no influence on ATC communication.

You are absolutely wrong on this. In some cases, dead wrong.
External distractions (real life turbulence, watching the restricted
airspace around you, overlapping ATC comms, other planes buzzing all
around etc etc etc) can turn a decent student pilot into a panicked
ball of jelly wondering how he will clean up his pants if/when he
lands safely. When ATC talks, you can get so flustered that you don't
know what they said. Been there, done that. That will never, ever,
ever happen to you sitting at the monitor killing time before Sesame
Street comes on.

JB writes:

You are absolutely wrong on this. In some cases, dead wrong.
External distractions (real life turbulence, watching the restricted
airspace around you, overlapping ATC comms, other planes buzzing all
around etc etc etc) can turn a decent student pilot into a panicked
ball of jelly wondering how he will clean up his pants if/when he
lands safely.

Following your logic, any distraction can do this, which means that no amount
of simulation OR real-life experience can be of any use, since there will
always be unexperienced distractions waiting to cause trouble.

But if all distractions are not qualitatively unique, then a single
distraction of any kind will suffice to simulate all others, in which case
both simulation and real-world experience will suffice as well, without
running the entire (infinite) gamut of possible distractions.

When ATC talks, you can get so flustered that you don't
know what they said. Been there, done that. That will never, ever,
ever happen to you sitting at the monitor killing time before Sesame
Street comes on.

It happens in simulation all the time, just like real life.

Nomen Nescio writes:

"Most" ain't good enough.

Sure it is. If it were not, then real life wouldn't be good enough either,
since real life never exhausts all the possibilities.

Larry Dighera writes:

Without intending to join the chorus, I respectfully submit, that you
have no concept of the joyous experience you are missing. Trust me.


I think it depends on what you want to get out of aviation. Clearly, many
private pilots get enjoyment out of bouncing around in a tiny airplane. They
probably enjoy roller-coasters, too (whereas I do not).

A new student pilot flying solo is at last free to wander in the third
dimension unconstrained as the vast majority of Earth bound souls are.
He soars from the surface of the Earth, and effortlessly guides his
light aircraft higher with such nimble agility, that the machine
mentally melds into his nervous system in a rapture of pure Zen
integration of spirit, mind and machine. He was born with wings, and
is as skillful and free as Bach's Jonathan. The pilot's visceral
reaction to the sights, sounds, smells, and kinesthetic cacophony's
endless bombardment of sensory input result in a unique ambiance that
is aviation. The pilot's post-flight consciousness is clear and
refreshed as though just squeegeed, and the world is a bright,
cheerful home indeed. Although he walks the same flat plane at the
juncture of atmosphere and terra as his fellows, he carries the
knowledge and experiences of the joy of flight, and the power to soar
at will.

Not quite as poetic as _High Flight_ or as direct as _One Six Right_, but a
respectable effort.

Get out to the closest uncontrolled field (I visited one north of
Othus in 2000*) at which is based an Air France Aero Club. Beg a ride
with one of the members on a fair Saturday morning. You'll thank me.

And if I discover that I don't like it?

People fly that way in France because the environment is so restrictive that
they have no other options. All they can do, from what I've understood, is
putter around in tiny airplanes at tiny airfields, as they are effectively
barred from anything more complicated or comfortable.

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writes:

It isn't the real MX.

Actually, it was, in this case.

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Dave Doe writes:

Pretend, being the operative word.

Pretending is extremely important to using simulators successfully. If you
cannot pretend--if you cannot suspend disbelief--you cannot really profit from
the simulator. Conversely, if you can do these things, using a simulator can
be extremely useful experience.

Only kids have plausable dualistic minds. Perhaps that's you. The rest
of us have grown up.

It's a function of intelligence more than age. The ability to adopt a
different viewpoint and voluntarily and selectively disregard aspects of
reality or fantasy at will is very closely correlated with intelligence, as it
requires considerable cognitive capacity. Animals have less intelligence and
virtually no imaginations, for example, and thus could never make much use of
simulators.

Enhanced, being the operative word there.

Yes.

It's not reality, and you *cannot* escape that.

Well, yes, you can. That's the whole idea. I've already explained the
principle above.

To do so - and you
should be put in a mental asylum - no longer being able to distinguish
between reality and fantasy is considered by good psychologists to
dangerous.

The inability to distinguish between reality and fantasy has nothing to do
with the ability to adopt either frame of reference.

Things like literary fiction and cinema depend on this ability, and it is
widely held and uncorrelated with mental illness. It is, in fact, a function
of intelligence, not insanity, as I've explained.

It most certainly is not!

Because you say so? ATC is extremely easy to simulate realistically compared
to other aspects of flying.

You fly a sim and yet are unable to "put yourself in the seat" - that's
counter to your argument in the first place. (It's a sim, and you're
telling me you can't simulate it - pathetic really).

I can put myself wherever I see fit in simulation, sometimes with varying
success (depending on the desired viewpoint and the type of simulation).
There are some aspects that I find more attractive and enjoyable than others.
An advantage of simulation is that I have a choice.

JB wrote:
On Apr 4, 6:41 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:
Other than you don't have airplanes, big birds, loose balloons and other
assorted objects appearing out of nowhere, the aircraft isn't bouncing
around in turbulance while you try to maintain attitude and altitude,
there are no other people in the aircraft trying to talk to you,
there is a pause button so you can take a leak anytime you need to,
and there are no real world consequences to any of your actions, it is
just like the real thing.
Most of these things have no influence on ATC communication.

You are absolutely wrong on this. In some cases, dead wrong.
External distractions (real life turbulence, watching the restricted
airspace around you, overlapping ATC comms, other planes buzzing all
around etc etc etc) can turn a decent student pilot into a panicked
ball of jelly wondering how he will clean up his pants if/when he
lands safely. When ATC talks, you can get so flustered that you don't
know what they said. Been there, done that. That will never, ever,
ever happen to you sitting at the monitor killing time before Sesame
Street comes on.

It's ironic and fascinatingly humorous:-)

I deal almost exclusively with research on these and other associated
issues literally every day. I interact with other professional pilots
including airline pilots, display pilots, test pilots from both the
military and civilian test flight communities, Red Bull Pilots, and as
well doctors, scientists, and technicians in the aerospace community.

Neither myself, or anyone of these people could have an opinion on these
issues that would mean anything, or alter in any way whatsoever,
anything put forth on these forums by Mxsmanic.

In other words, why bother? :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

Nomen Nescio writes:

Good analogy, I've seen a few (very few) actors who are pretty good at pretending
to fly a plane. Put them in a real one, and they're in deep ****.

They are performing the inverse of simulation, but are using similar skills.
In their case, they are the primary locus of the simulation, rather than the
environment around them. For people using flight simulators, the simulator is
the locus, and they adapt to it.

writes:

You really, really don't know what you're talking about.

Show the errors, if any.