How much longer?

"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in news:PpeLj.27077$KJ1.10288
@newsfe19.lga:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
"Maxwell" luv2^fly99@cox.^net wrote in news:GKdLj.65016$y05.28316
@newsfe22.lga:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news:qcdLj.60058$TT4.34792@attbi_s22:

Right. And would you want that unregulated refinery built upwind
from
your hotel?? Didn't think so.

Ah, yes -- another person who apparently hasn't flown over most of
the
country -- which, by the way is almost entirely VACANT.

On that basis we should build it inside your head.


Bertie

And you offer this pointless tid bit because you have no point, or
don't
understand the issue, or both?



Just being constructive.


865


Bertie

73




92


Bertie

Dylan Smith wrote in
:

On 2008-04-10, Jay Honeck wrote:
Right. And would you want that unregulated refinery built upwind
from
your hotel?? Didn't think so.

Ah, yes -- another person who apparently hasn't flown over most of
the
country -- which, by the way is almost entirely VACANT. Of course
you
wouldn't build a refinery in a populated area.

Where are you going to get the workers?



I think he's probably hopoing he can get illegal immigrants and drug
addicts, like he has in his 'hotel'.

Refineries need infrastructure. If you want to build a refinery on
vacant land it will be an inordinately expensive proposition: you need
to build suitable roads, pipelines, houses for the workers to live -
you've got to get the materials in to build the refinery.

If you look at where the refineries are at the moment, there are good
reasons for why they are where they are, because they need to be close
enough for certain resources: engineers to run the plant, workers to
do
the day to day operation, safety and security (fire crews, police).
You
have to get the raw materials in and the refined product out. These go
in and out in colossal quantities, so refineries are often in a place
where you can get large ships into and out of. Since you have all
those
workers now running the plant, the workers themselves need all the
other
infrastructure to support their lives: shops, entertainment, and all
the
other typical things you find in a city. If you want to build that in
the middle of nowhere, you're also going to have to build a city to go
with it and also find workers (many who need to be highly educated and
skilled) who are prepared to work in a new city, in the middle of
nowhere. Presumably, given your political leanings, you don't want
this
to be the only class of people who are likely to want to do this -
immigrants from poor countries off your southern border.

Additionally, building the new city that must go with the refinery is
going to be orders of magnitude more expensive than simply extending
an
existing refinery, or building one where the people already live that
doesn't turn the air green.

We don't have refineries that run as unattended automatons. A refinery
needs very close supervision because it's basically a giant bomb.


You'll confuse him now! You do realise he gets all his info from Fox
news, right?



Bertie

Dylan,

If that's what you really want, are you prepared to live in an oil town?
It's terribly easy to sit in rural Iowa and decree that oil towns should
be cancerous armpits. Having lived in an oil town, I think the
environmental regulations aren't tight enough.


Dammit, you're gonna make him lose the love for the group again.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On 2008-04-10, Dylan Smith wrote:
It's for the adults, too. I've lived in an oil town, and even with the
environmental regulations we have today, the sky still turns green over
La Porte, and after flying a clean aircraft for a half hour, you land
and there's a film of gunk adhering to the leading edges of everything.
This is Texas City, Baytown, La Porte and most of the east side of
Houston today, not a story from antiquity. If you're flying the ILS into
Galveston, you can do without a marker beacon in your panel - the air
gets a unique stench as you approach the outer marker (and for most of
the rest of the approach). Texas City residents just have to live with
that stench.

I lived in Houston well past my 40th birthday. I learned to fly out of
Ellington Field, and flew back and forth to Galveston to practice. I didn't
notice any of this.

I'd be happy to have a refinery in Fairmont. It won't happen, though, as the
regulatory climate in Minnesota is extremely anti-oil.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2008-04-10, Jay Honeck wrote:
Right. And would you want that unregulated refinery built upwind from
your hotel?? Didn't think so.

Ah, yes -- another person who apparently hasn't flown over most of the
country -- which, by the way is almost entirely VACANT. Of course you
wouldn't build a refinery in a populated area.

Where are you going to get the workers?

Refineries need infrastructure. If you want to build a refinery on
vacant land it will be an inordinately expensive proposition: you need
to build suitable roads, pipelines, houses for the workers to live -
you've got to get the materials in to build the refinery.

If you look at where the refineries are at the moment, there are good
reasons for why they are where they are, because they need to be close
enough for certain resources: engineers to run the plant, workers to do
the day to day operation, safety and security (fire crews, police). You
have to get the raw materials in and the refined product out. These go
in and out in colossal quantities, so refineries are often in a place
where you can get large ships into and out of. Since you have all those
workers now running the plant, the workers themselves need all the other
infrastructure to support their lives: shops, entertainment, and all the
other typical things you find in a city. If you want to build that in
the middle of nowhere, you're also going to have to build a city to go
with it and also find workers (many who need to be highly educated and
skilled) who are prepared to work in a new city, in the middle of
nowhere. Presumably, given your political leanings, you don't want this
to be the only class of people who are likely to want to do this -
immigrants from poor countries off your southern border.

Additionally, building the new city that must go with the refinery is
going to be orders of magnitude more expensive than simply extending an
existing refinery, or building one where the people already live that
doesn't turn the air green.

We don't have refineries that run as unattended automatons. A refinery
needs very close supervision because it's basically a giant bomb.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

Why is your argument precisely the reverse of every accepted tenet of urban
planning and development and the ripple effect of any additional skilled and
professional jobs?

Could it be that you simply have it backward?

Peter

Thomas Borchert wrote in
:

Dylan,

If that's what you really want, are you prepared to live in an oil town?
It's terribly easy to sit in rural Iowa and decree that oil towns should
be cancerous armpits. Having lived in an oil town, I think the
environmental regulations aren't tight enough.


Dammit, you're gonna make him lose the love for the group again.


ewww, the image that just conjured up...

Shudder..

Bertie

On 2008-04-10, Jay Maynard wrote:
I lived in Houston well past my 40th birthday. I learned to fly out of
Ellington Field, and flew back and forth to Galveston to practice. I didn't
notice any of this.

You must be quite unobservant. The Ellington field area is quite near
refineryland. From Houston Gulf, where I was based (until it closed
down), on a clear day looking north over Clear Lake, the air quite
obviously had a green tinge (more so if there was a temperature
inversion). The smell is very strong if you drive up to La Porte
airport past the refineries themselves. Looking south to Texas City, you
could often see a greenish haze there too, although not as dense as the
La Porte/Belaire/Baytown area. Our aircraft had a nice clean paint job
and lots of polished surfaces, the film of light brown gunk on all the
leading edges soon became noticable.

If you couldn't smell the outer marker when approaching Galveston then
you've no sense of smell or were remarkably unobservant. In League City
where I lived, when the wind was out of the north the smell of
petrochemicals was very noticable, and nearly everyone commented about
the smelly air.

Whenever I go to Houston now, the smell when you leave the terminal at
IAH is noticable, even though that's some distance away from the
main refinery areas. I never used to notice it that far out when I
actually lived there, probably because that's just how the air was and I
didn't really notice it any more.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:46:34 GMT, Jay Maynard wrote:

On 2008-04-10, Dylan Smith wrote:
It's for the adults, too. I've lived in an oil town, and even with the
environmental regulations we have today, the sky still turns green over
La Porte, and after flying a clean aircraft for a half hour, you land
and there's a film of gunk adhering to the leading edges of everything.
This is Texas City, Baytown, La Porte and most of the east side of
Houston today, not a story from antiquity. If you're flying the ILS into
Galveston, you can do without a marker beacon in your panel - the air
gets a unique stench as you approach the outer marker (and for most of
the rest of the approach). Texas City residents just have to live with
that stench.

I lived in Houston well past my 40th birthday. I learned to fly out of
Ellington Field, and flew back and forth to Galveston to practice. I didn't
notice any of this.

You must have lived in the alternate universe Houston.

I was born and raised there. I vividly remember a family reunion
picnic being driven from Milby Park by the stench of a nearby chemical
plant.

Houston, despite being located on a flat plain near the ocean, is
regularly among the smoggiest cities in the U. S. L. A. at least has
the excuse of being in a basin that traps the gunk.

http://www.ewg.org/reports/fuzzyair


I'd be happy to have a refinery in Fairmont. It won't happen, though, as the
regulatory climate in Minnesota is extremely anti-oil.

Refiners know they can beat environmental rules by upgrading existing
plants that are "grandfathered." They don't need to build new ones.

On 2008-04-10, Peter Dohm wrote:
Why is your argument precisely the reverse of every accepted tenet of urban
planning and development and the ripple effect of any additional skilled and
professional jobs?

It isn't. Jay's solution is to build a refinery in the middle of
nowhere, which by definition has no people yet. So you're going to have
to bootstrap the process *somehow*.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

On 2008-04-10, Dylan Smith wrote:
Our aircraft had a nice clean paint job and lots of polished surfaces, the
film of light brown gunk on all the leading edges soon became noticable.

This wasn't an issue for any of the aircraft in the Ellington Field Aero
Club for as long as I was a member.

If you couldn't smell the outer marker when approaching Galveston then
you've no sense of smell or were remarkably unobservant. In League City
where I lived, when the wind was out of the north the smell of
petrochemicals was very noticable, and nearly everyone commented about
the smelly air.

I, too, lived in League City (in fact, I was a volunteer paramedic there for
over a decade), and nobody commented on it in my presence.

Whenever I go to Houston now, the smell when you leave the terminal at
IAH is noticable, even though that's some distance away from the
main refinery areas. I never used to notice it that far out when I
actually lived there, probably because that's just how the air was and I
didn't really notice it any more.

I still don't notice it, there or down in League City. I do notice it just a
little bit along Texas 225 out toward the Battleship Texas, but how many
refineries are out that way?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)