PC flight simulators

ArtKramr wrote in message ...

Bad manners and the delusion that sitting at a computer paying with games is
the same as really flying.

Art, I don't think anyone is honestly of the impression that flight sims on PCs are the same as real flight.

And nobody is even beginning to suggest that combat simulators offer anything more than a brief glimpse of what you and your
comrades and fellow airmen went through in the air over Europe in WW2.

They're good at aiding in instrument training, learning basic procedures (like entering the landing pattern at airports, learning
how to use ILS, tuning into the correct frequency for VORs and other NAVAIDS), and the very basic principles of powered flight.

Not even Microsoft will tell you that their simulation software is intended to be used off-the-shelf as an ultra-realistic and
precision-accurate representation of real world flight because it simply is not possible for it to be so.

The only computer based simulators that offer any degree of accuracy in terms of "look and feel" are the massive multi-million £/$
moving simulators with complete working flight deck and one-piece 180 degree wrap-around screen. That's why they cost millions and
FS2004 costs £50/$80.

But I still wouldn't class MSFS as a game simply because it isn't capable of offering what a real aircraft or a purpose-built
multi-million £/$ aircraft simulator can.

(Just my 2p / 2c)

Cheers
Graeme

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Anonymous"
Date: 11/18/03 7:07 AM Pacific Standard Time

But I still wouldn't class MSFS as a game simply because it isn't capable of
offering what a real aircraft or a purpose-built
multi-million £/$ aircraft simulator can.

MSFS can teach you things. But it is a game that can teach you things. Of all
the responses I got to my oirst post mostly insulting flames and personal
attacks most refused to accept the fact that it wasn't flying and resented it
being called a game. It is a damned computewr game. When you sit at your
computer you are not flying anything. You are playing a computer game. It had
educational benefits, biut it is still a game. If all you ever know about
entering a pattern you learn from MSFS, you are in deep troub;le. Very deep
trouble.If the only IFR you ever learn is from MSFS you are in deep trouble.
If youi have no air time but thousands of hours on MSFS, you still can't fly a
damn thing except FS. And that amounts to the fact that you have become good
at a game. Nothing more. It also shows that reality is slipping away from many
on this NG. Or maybe it was never there.But your post takes a more balanced
view without a flame in sight.Thank you for that..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Perhaps it is time for you to give us a definition of game vs. simulator.
Because you seem to be saying that if you sit at a desk and use a simulator
it is a game vs. going to someplace else and using a simulator when it
becomes legitimate.

Jarg

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Anonymous"
Date: 11/18/03 7:07 AM Pacific Standard Time

But I still wouldn't class MSFS as a game simply because it isn't capable
of
offering what a real aircraft or a purpose-built
multi-million £/$ aircraft simulator can.

MSFS can teach you things. But it is a game that can teach you things. Of
all
the responses I got to my oirst post mostly insulting flames and
personal
attacks most refused to accept the fact that it wasn't flying and resented
it
being called a game. It is a damned computewr game. When you sit at your
computer you are not flying anything. You are playing a computer game. It
had
educational benefits, biut it is still a game. If all you ever know about
entering a pattern you learn from MSFS, you are in deep troub;le. Very
deep
trouble.If the only IFR you ever learn is from MSFS you are in deep
trouble.
If youi have no air time but thousands of hours on MSFS, you still can't
fly a
damn thing except FS. And that amounts to the fact that you have become
good
at a game. Nothing more. It also shows that reality is slipping away from
many
on this NG. Or maybe it was never there.But your post takes a more
balanced
view without a flame in sight.Thank you for that..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Jarg"
Date: 11/18/03 9:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: m

Perhaps it is time for you to give us a definition of game vs. simulator.
Because you seem to be saying that if you sit at a desk and use a simulator
it is a game vs. going to someplace else and using a simulator when it
becomes legitimate.

Jarg

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Anonymous"
Date: 11/18/03 7:07 AM Pacific Standard Time

But I still wouldn't class MSFS as a game simply because it isn't capable
of
offering what a real aircraft or a purpose-built
multi-million £/$ aircraft simulator can.

MSFS can teach you things. But it is a game that can teach you things. Of
all
the responses I got to my oirst post mostly insulting flames and
personal
attacks most refused to accept the fact that it wasn't flying and resented
it
being called a game. It is a damned computewr game. When you sit at your
computer you are not flying anything. You are playing a computer game. It
had
educational benefits, biut it is still a game. If all you ever know about
entering a pattern you learn from MSFS, you are in deep troub;le. Very
deep
trouble.If the only IFR you ever learn is from MSFS you are in deep
trouble.
If youi have no air time but thousands of hours on MSFS, you still can't
fly a
damn thing except FS. And that amounts to the fact that you have become
good
at a game. Nothing more. It also shows that reality is slipping away from
many
on this NG. Or maybe it was never there.But your post takes a more
balanced
view without a flame in sight.Thank you for that..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer





A sumulator simulates to the full extent of the flying experience It is what
the airlines use to train and check pilot proficiencey. It is what the Air
Force uses for the same purpose. It must have full and complete instrumentation
that works with total accuracy. It must have a fully functioning column with
the " feel" the original plane through the controls. Comparing MSFS to an
airline or Air Force simulator is like comparing a plastic toy pistol to a Uzi.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
[snip]

A sumulator simulates to the full extent of the flying experience It is
what
the airlines use to train and check pilot proficiencey. It is what the Air
Force uses for the same purpose. It must have full and complete
instrumentation
that works with total accuracy.

I don't think such a thing exists. Not even the most expensive military or
commercial simulators fall under this definition. For example today it is
AFAIK impossible to simulate post-stall airflow in real time "with total
accuracy" on any computer conceivable for training simulator use.

Also let me tell you that there is quite a number of military simulators
that don't even have a motion system because it is impossible to create true
g-loads without massive (and expensive) mechanical efforts (which btw bring
trade-offs in other areas (visual system etc.)). G-loads are "simulated"
simply by inflating the g-suits (and some cushions) - not exactly "the full
extent of the flying experience".

It must have a fully functioning column with
the " feel" the original plane through the controls. Comparing MSFS to an
airline or Air Force simulator is like comparing a plastic toy pistol to a
Uzi.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Sierk Melzer"
Date: 11/18/03 12:03 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I don't think such a thing exists. Not even the most expensive military or
commercial simulators fall under this definition. For example today it is
AFAIK impossible to simulate post-stall airflow in real time "with total
accuracy" on any computer

Yes. It is a chaos theory problem that has to this date not been solved. But
Dr.Mandelbrot of IBM has made progress and hopefully we will have a solution
soon. When Einstein was dying someone asked him what he would ask god when he
got to heaven, Einstein answered,"Well I think god will have all the answers to
relativity. But I don't think he will have all the ansers to Chaos Theory".
And airflow falls under chaos theory as do whirlpools. To give you some idea of
the diffficulty of the problem, the most powerful super computers working for
a full year could only plot whirlpool or air eddy patterns over a 30 second
period. That is one reason why we can't yet predict weather with any high
degree of certainty or post stall airflow in real time.. Let's all wish Dr.
Mandelbrot luck.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

A sumulator simulates to the full extent of the flying experience It is
what
the airlines use to train and check pilot proficiencey. It is what the Air
Force uses for the same purpose. It must have full and complete
instrumentation
that works with total accuracy. It must have a fully functioning column
with
the " feel" the original plane through the controls. Comparing MSFS to an
airline or Air Force simulator is like comparing a plastic toy pistol to a
Uzi.

First, nobody was implying that the computer programs in question were to be
used for flight training.

Second, the term "simulator" covers a very broad base--not just the
extremely-high-fidelity equipment that can be used for flight checks and
training. The distinction lies in the fidelity of the simulation.

ArtKramr wrote in message ...

If all you ever know about entering a pattern you learn from MSFS, you are in
deep troub;le.
If the only IFR you ever learn is from MSFS you are in deep trouble.
If youi have no air time but thousands of hours on MSFS, you still can't fly a
damn thing except FS.

This is also the case with any simulation, PC-based or one of those big moving
things (can we come up with a shorter name for those damned things? Can't keep
calling 'em "big moving expensive simulator things", eh?).

I'm perfectly aware that there's no substitute for real flying with a qualified
flight instructor - I look forward to the day I can afford to try for my PPL.

It also shows that reality is slipping away from many on this NG. Or maybe
it was never there.

I'm a relative newbie here (lurking for a few months prior to my first post)
and already I share your viewpoint ;o)

But your post takes a more balanced view without a flame in sight.Thank you
for that..

No worries; courtesy is free, as are good manners. I like talking to people
like I'd like them to talk to me.

I know this isn't really going to change anyone's views on MS Flight Sim...

But take a look at this guy :-

http://www.geocities.com/cap17.geo/Tony_Leaver.html

He's built up a cockpit from a real F4 Phantom and has connected most of the
switch inputs, the yoke, and the rudder pedals to an interface card in his
PC, which runs FS2002.

Looks fun, and it seems to be an interesting project to build ;o)

Cheers
Graeme

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Anonymous"
Date: 11/18/03 9:54 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


ArtKramr wrote in message ...

If all you ever know about entering a pattern you learn from MSFS, you are
in
deep troub;le.
If the only IFR you ever learn is from MSFS you are in deep trouble.
If youi have no air time but thousands of hours on MSFS, you still can't fly
a
damn thing except FS.

This is also the case with any simulation, PC-based or one of those big
moving
things (can we come up with a shorter name for those damned things? Can't
keep
calling 'em "big moving expensive simulator things", eh?).

I'm perfectly aware that there's no substitute for real flying with a
qualified
flight instructor - I look forward to the day I can afford to try for my PPL.

It also shows that reality is slipping away from many on this NG. Or maybe
it was never there.

I'm a relative newbie here (lurking for a few months prior to my first post)
and already I share your viewpoint ;o)

But your post takes a more balanced view without a flame in sight.Thank you
for that..

No worries; courtesy is free, as are good manners. I like talking to people
like I'd like them to talk to me.

I know this isn't really going to change anyone's views on MS Flight Sim...

But take a look at this guy :-

http://www.geocities.com/cap17.geo/Tony_Leaver.html

He's built up a cockpit from a real F4 Phantom and has connected most of the
switch inputs, the yoke, and the rudder pedals to an interface card in his
PC, which runs FS2002.

Looks fun, and it seems to be an interesting project to build ;o)

Cheers
Graeme




During WW II we had a simulator at Lake Charles. It was a real B-26 Martin
Marauder truncated and mounted in a hanger. When youi climbed into it you could
smell the cordite, urine, vomit and 100 octane.You strapped yourself in and you
could smell the leather on the seats. It behaved llike a real plane in every
sense including the feel of the controls, the operation of the Norden bombsight
and the results of doing bomb runs in that simulator. Now that is a simulator.
MSFS doesn''t quite cut it.. But in those years with a war on, flying was a
serious life and death affair, especially in Marauders. . No nonsense allowed.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 18 Nov 2003 18:16:49 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

During WW II we had a simulator at Lake Charles. It was a real B-26 Martin
Marauder truncated and mounted in a hanger. When youi climbed into it you could
smell the cordite, urine, vomit and 100 octane.You strapped yourself in and you
could smell the leather on the seats. It behaved llike a real plane in every
sense including the feel of the controls, the operation of the Norden bombsight
and the results of doing bomb runs in that simulator. Now that is a simulator.
MSFS doesn''t quite cut it.. But in those years with a war on, flying was a
serious life and death affair, especially in Marauders. . No nonsense allowed.

Is there any reference to this simulator available?

How was the view system done to get the Norden training? How were the
instruments in the cockpit powered? How was force-feedback of the
control column performed?


Questions over questions by someone who thought that the first
full-motion simulator was made for the Boeing 727....





Bye
Andreas