PC flight simulators

Perhaps it is time for you to give us a definition of game vs. simulator.
Because you seem to be saying that if you sit at a desk and use a simulator
it is a game vs. going to someplace else and using a simulator when it
becomes legitimate.

Jarg

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Anonymous"
Date: 11/18/03 7:07 AM Pacific Standard Time

But I still wouldn't class MSFS as a game simply because it isn't capable
of
offering what a real aircraft or a purpose-built
multi-million £/$ aircraft simulator can.

MSFS can teach you things. But it is a game that can teach you things. Of
all
the responses I got to my oirst post mostly insulting flames and
personal
attacks most refused to accept the fact that it wasn't flying and resented
it
being called a game. It is a damned computewr game. When you sit at your
computer you are not flying anything. You are playing a computer game. It
had
educational benefits, biut it is still a game. If all you ever know about
entering a pattern you learn from MSFS, you are in deep troub;le. Very
deep
trouble.If the only IFR you ever learn is from MSFS you are in deep
trouble.
If youi have no air time but thousands of hours on MSFS, you still can't
fly a
damn thing except FS. And that amounts to the fact that you have become
good
at a game. Nothing more. It also shows that reality is slipping away from
many
on this NG. Or maybe it was never there.But your post takes a more
balanced
view without a flame in sight.Thank you for that..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Jarg"
Date: 11/18/03 9:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: m

Perhaps it is time for you to give us a definition of game vs. simulator.
Because you seem to be saying that if you sit at a desk and use a simulator
it is a game vs. going to someplace else and using a simulator when it
becomes legitimate.

Jarg

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Anonymous"
Date: 11/18/03 7:07 AM Pacific Standard Time

But I still wouldn't class MSFS as a game simply because it isn't capable
of
offering what a real aircraft or a purpose-built
multi-million £/$ aircraft simulator can.

MSFS can teach you things. But it is a game that can teach you things. Of
all
the responses I got to my oirst post mostly insulting flames and
personal
attacks most refused to accept the fact that it wasn't flying and resented
it
being called a game. It is a damned computewr game. When you sit at your
computer you are not flying anything. You are playing a computer game. It
had
educational benefits, biut it is still a game. If all you ever know about
entering a pattern you learn from MSFS, you are in deep troub;le. Very
deep
trouble.If the only IFR you ever learn is from MSFS you are in deep
trouble.
If youi have no air time but thousands of hours on MSFS, you still can't
fly a
damn thing except FS. And that amounts to the fact that you have become
good
at a game. Nothing more. It also shows that reality is slipping away from
many
on this NG. Or maybe it was never there.But your post takes a more
balanced
view without a flame in sight.Thank you for that..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer





A sumulator simulates to the full extent of the flying experience It is what
the airlines use to train and check pilot proficiencey. It is what the Air
Force uses for the same purpose. It must have full and complete instrumentation
that works with total accuracy. It must have a fully functioning column with
the " feel" the original plane through the controls. Comparing MSFS to an
airline or Air Force simulator is like comparing a plastic toy pistol to a Uzi.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
Subject: PC flight simulators
[snip]

A sumulator simulates to the full extent of the flying experience It is
what
the airlines use to train and check pilot proficiencey. It is what the Air
Force uses for the same purpose. It must have full and complete
instrumentation
that works with total accuracy.

I don't think such a thing exists. Not even the most expensive military or
commercial simulators fall under this definition. For example today it is
AFAIK impossible to simulate post-stall airflow in real time "with total
accuracy" on any computer conceivable for training simulator use.

Also let me tell you that there is quite a number of military simulators
that don't even have a motion system because it is impossible to create true
g-loads without massive (and expensive) mechanical efforts (which btw bring
trade-offs in other areas (visual system etc.)). G-loads are "simulated"
simply by inflating the g-suits (and some cushions) - not exactly "the full
extent of the flying experience".

It must have a fully functioning column with
the " feel" the original plane through the controls. Comparing MSFS to an
airline or Air Force simulator is like comparing a plastic toy pistol to a
Uzi.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: PC flight simulators
From: "Sierk Melzer"
Date: 11/18/03 12:03 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I don't think such a thing exists. Not even the most expensive military or
commercial simulators fall under this definition. For example today it is
AFAIK impossible to simulate post-stall airflow in real time "with total
accuracy" on any computer

Yes. It is a chaos theory problem that has to this date not been solved. But
Dr.Mandelbrot of IBM has made progress and hopefully we will have a solution
soon. When Einstein was dying someone asked him what he would ask god when he
got to heaven, Einstein answered,"Well I think god will have all the answers to
relativity. But I don't think he will have all the ansers to Chaos Theory".
And airflow falls under chaos theory as do whirlpools. To give you some idea of
the diffficulty of the problem, the most powerful super computers working for
a full year could only plot whirlpool or air eddy patterns over a 30 second
period. That is one reason why we can't yet predict weather with any high
degree of certainty or post stall airflow in real time.. Let's all wish Dr.
Mandelbrot luck.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

A sumulator simulates to the full extent of the flying experience It is
what
the airlines use to train and check pilot proficiencey. It is what the Air
Force uses for the same purpose. It must have full and complete
instrumentation
that works with total accuracy. It must have a fully functioning column
with
the " feel" the original plane through the controls. Comparing MSFS to an
airline or Air Force simulator is like comparing a plastic toy pistol to a
Uzi.

First, nobody was implying that the computer programs in question were to be
used for flight training.

Second, the term "simulator" covers a very broad base--not just the
extremely-high-fidelity equipment that can be used for flight checks and
training. The distinction lies in the fidelity of the simulation.