Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

wrote:

Knowingly taking off over gross invalidates any insurance.

No. It doesn't invalidate mine, nor does it invalidate any of the policies
I've had in the last 18 yrs.

If insurance policies were invalidated by poor decision-making, they'd be
worthless.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200804/1

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:
wrote:
Knowingly taking off over gross invalidates any insurance.

No. It doesn't invalidate mine, nor does it invalidate any of the policies
I've had in the last 18 yrs.

If insurance policies were invalidated by poor decision-making, they'd be
worthless.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Where this becomes an insurance issue is in the litigation the insurance
company instigates after the accident.
It's a classic setup for their trial attorney's.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:


Where this becomes an insurance issue is in the litigation the insurance
company instigates after the accident.
It's a classic setup for their trial attorney's.

I suppose anything could be litigated, but if your policy contract doesn't
have an exclusion for (in this case) taking off overweight, the insurance
company doesn't have a leg to stand on.

A flying buddy of mine is an insurance company lawyer and he gets a kick
out of hearing these nebulous "that will invalidate your insurance" stories.
They are very reluctant to refuse claims that are not excluded in the written
contract. Insurance regulators will go after them if they try.

Basically, insurance is there to cover your butt if you do something stupid.
They have limits on what level of stupidity they will cover, which are
spelled out in the exclusions section of the policy. My current policy
doesn't cover me if the plane is out of annual (not operating with a valid
airwothiness cert.), or if I happen to be commiting a crime when the accident
happens. Other than a few other minor exclusions, they've got my potential
stupidity covered. Whether I decide to takeoff overweight or fly VFR into
IMC, I'm confident that the insurance company will hold up its end of the
bargain. As I stated before, if they really did disallow claims for poor
decision making, their policies would be virtually worthless. A vast
percentage of aviation accidents and incidents involve some level of poor
decision making.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200804/1

JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:

I suppose anything could be litigated, but if your policy contract doesn't
have an exclusion for (in this case) taking off overweight, the insurance
company doesn't have a leg to stand on.
-- SNIP --

Basically, insurance is there to cover your butt if you do something stupid.
They have limits on what level of stupidity they will cover, which are
spelled out in the exclusions section of the policy. My current policy
doesn't cover me if the plane is out of annual (not operating with a valid
airwothiness cert.), or if I happen to be commiting a crime when the accident
happens.

I may have understood this wrong, but here goes...

Years back, I went to a FSDO seminar that explained "airworthy". I
seem to remember that the FAA Airworthiness Certificate included the
operating limitations, including max gross weight. Operating outside of
the limitations voided the cert., so there's the insurance out.

I'm open to comments on if I understood this correctly.

B A R R Y wrote:


Years back, I went to a FSDO seminar that explained "airworthy". I
seem to remember that the FAA Airworthiness Certificate included the
operating limitations, including max gross weight. Operating outside of
the limitations voided the cert., so there's the insurance out.

I think this is what the FSDO speaker was referring to:

http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY%5CRGFAR.NSF/0/E62E5E8DEC3FD1BE85256687007193C5?OpenDocument

"Part 23 AIRWORTHINESS STANDARDS: NORMAL, UTILITY, ACROBATIC, AND
COMMUTER CATEGORY AIRPLANES
Subpart G--Operating Limitations and Information

Sec. 23.1519

Weight and center of gravity.

The weight and center of gravity limitations determined under Sec. 23.23
must be established as operating limitations."

B A R R Y wrote:
JGalban via AviationKB.com wrote:

I suppose anything could be litigated, but if your policy contract
doesn't
have an exclusion for (in this case) taking off overweight, the insurance
company doesn't have a leg to stand on.
-- SNIP --

Basically, insurance is there to cover your butt if you do something
stupid.
They have limits on what level of stupidity they will cover, which are
spelled out in the exclusions section of the policy. My current policy
doesn't cover me if the plane is out of annual (not operating with a
valid
airwothiness cert.), or if I happen to be commiting a crime when the
accident
happens.

I may have understood this wrong, but here goes...

Years back, I went to a FSDO seminar that explained "airworthy". I
seem to remember that the FAA Airworthiness Certificate included the
operating limitations, including max gross weight. Operating outside of
the limitations voided the cert., so there's the insurance out.

I'm open to comments on if I understood this correctly.

It's only an out if there is wording in the policy that gives them the
out. Here's the AVEMCO wording and I can't find any where in there that
would give them an out.

http://www.avemco.com/Page/Insurance...ft-Policy.aspx

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:58:38 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote:


It's only an out if there is wording in the policy that gives them the
out. Here's the AVEMCO wording and I can't find any where in there that
would give them an out.

I think you're right.

We have AIG, but I've never read the policy. Once of these days, I
should have my partner dig it out. G

On Apr 18, 12:58*pm, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote:
* I suppose anything could be litigated, but if your policy contract
doesn't
have an exclusion for (in this case) taking off overweight, the insurance
company doesn't have a leg to stand on. *
happens. *


It's only an out if there is wording in the policy that gives them the
out. *Here's the AVEMCO wording and I can't find any where in there that
would give them an out.

http://www.avemco.com/Page/Insurance...t-Policy.aspx- Hide quoted text -

First, this isnt the part of the policy that covers exlusions. Second,
AVEMCO does reserve the right to recover claims. They are world famous
for this and it is rumored in the industry that they spend more money
recovering claims than they do paying them. Just a silly rumor to be
sure but it is pretty scary. I had an AVEMCO policy years ago and my
attorney said it wasnt worth the paper it was printed on.
Frank

Subrogation!

F. Baum wrote:
On Apr 18, 12:58 pm, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote:
I suppose anything could be litigated, but if your policy contract
doesn't
have an exclusion for (in this case) taking off overweight, the insurance
company doesn't have a leg to stand on.
happens.

It's only an out if there is wording in the policy that gives them the
out. Here's the AVEMCO wording and I can't find any where in there that
would give them an out.

http://www.avemco.com/Page/Insurance...t-Policy.aspx- Hide quoted text -

First, this isnt the part of the policy that covers exlusions. Second,
AVEMCO does reserve the right to recover claims. They are world famous
for this and it is rumored in the industry that they spend more money
recovering claims than they do paying them. Just a silly rumor to be
sure but it is pretty scary. I had an AVEMCO policy years ago and my
attorney said it wasnt worth the paper it was printed on.
Frank


I haven't seen a real AVEMCO policy but the link I posted had plenty of
exclusions.

Exclusions Applying to All Coverages
(See Additional Exclusions to Coverages A, B, and C)

This Policy does not cover bodily injury, property damage or loss:

When your insured aircraft is:
outside the policy territory;
used for a commercial purpose;
used by an insured person to unlawfully traffic in, or carry, persons,
drugs, narcotics or other contraband;
operated in flight by a pilot who is not approved in Item 6 of the Data
Page;
operated by a student pilot carrying another occupant unless one of
these occupants is a Certified Flight Instructor on board for the
purpose of instructing or examining that student pilot;
owned in whole, or in part, by someone except you;
equipped for water takeoff and landing unless shown as such in Item 4 of
the Data Page;
Arising out of:
declared or undeclared war, civil war, riot or revolt;
the detonation of an atomic device or radioactive contamination from any
source.


Additional Exclusions Applying to Coverage A

This coverage does not apply to:

Bodily injury or property damage liability an insured person assumes by
contract or agreement. However, liability assumed under an airport
contract is covered, provided the liability arises out of the insured
person's storage or use of the insured aircraft on the airport;
Bodily injury or property damage when an insured person is insured under
nuclear energy liability insurance. This exclusion applies even if the
limits of that insurance are reached
Bodily injury and property damage arising out of:
noise or vibration
pollution or contamination unless caused by a loss
Bodily injury to:
an occupant unless Item 5 of the Data Page shows "including occupants";
an employee of an insured person when workers' compensation is available
or required to compensate the employee of the insured person against
whom the claim is made;
Property damage to an insured aircraft (including after its sale where
property damage coverage is extended for up to one year);
Damage to property:
owned by an insured person;
being carried in your insured aircraft. However, personal effects of
each occupant are covered up to $1,000;
rented to, or in the charge of, an insured person. However, rented
hangars and their contents are covered up to a maximum of $25,000 each
accident.



Additional Exclusions Applying to Coverage B

This coverage does not apply to loss to your insured aircraft:

While it is in flight unless Item 5 of the Data Page shows "including in
flight";
Caused by legal or illegal seizure or confiscation, or during detention
by any governmental body;
Which arises out of a taking, holding, secreting, repossession or sale by:
anyone to whom its care, custody, control or use has been given by an
insured person;
anyone making a claim for or against it under contract, agreement, or law;
Due and confined to breakdown. This exclusion does not apply to ensuing
loss, unless it is another such breakdown;
If the loss is to a turbine engine of your insured aircraft when it is
caused by:
an object that is part of an engine or its accessories;
heat resulting from the starting, operation or shutdown of an engine;
a breakdown, failure or malfunction of an engine component, accessory or
part;
an object, not a part of an engine or its accessories, unless the loss
was sudden and caused by a single recorded event that requires immediate
repair to meet the requirements of the engine manufacturer.


Additional Exclusions Applying to Insurance for Your Use of Non-Owned
Aircraft

This insurance does not apply to:

The non-owned aircraft owner, or the owner's agent or employees
The use of a non-owned aircraft which:
does not hold a "Standard" category airworthiness certificate;
is a rotorcraft, unless your insured aircraft is a rotorcraft;
is a turboprop aircraft, unless your insured aircraft is a turboprop
aircraft;
is a turbojet aircraft, unless your insured aircraft is a turbojet
aircraft;
has a seating capacity of more than 7 persons, or, if greater, the
seating capacity of your insured aircraft;
is used without its owner's consent.