Feds Want to Equipe Gliders With Transponders and Radios

Larry Dighera wrote:

On Sat, 03 May 2008 23:15:03 GMT, wrote in
:



The FAA radars are what they are.

You can arm wave forever about what they could be, but that isn't going
to change them.

But decommissioning them, as part of the ADS-B implementation, will
make them moot.

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

On Sat, 03 May 2008 20:15:32 -0400, Jennifer Allen
wrote in :



Larry Dighera wrote:

On Sat, 03 May 2008 23:15:03 GMT, wrote in
:



The FAA radars are what they are.

You can arm wave forever about what they could be, but that isn't going
to change them.

But decommissioning them, as part of the ADS-B implementation, will
make them moot.

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

I would enjoy reading supporting documentation for that assertion.


As this message thread refers to painting glider primary targets, it
would seem that post ADS-B, the FAA primary radars will be
decommissioned with the exception of those around the peripheral of
the US, hence my statement above.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a
Decommissioning only the primary radar would result in both cost
avoidance (no upgrades) and maintenance cost-savings. Annual savings
estimates are approximately $30M per year. (Note: For purposes of
national defense, the primary radars around the peripheral of the
United States, would not be decommissioned in the near term).



http://astra.aero/downloads/ABIT/ABI...ting_final.pdf
The FAA envisions decommissioning. more than 300 en route radars. ...



http://www.fcw.com/print/12_23/news/94989-1.html
Radar is an outdated technology, the FAA says. Moving to ADS-B will
let the agency eventually decommission some of the current ground
radars. According to an FAA report, radar is imperfect and sometimes
has trouble distinguishing airplanes from flocks of birds or patches
of rain.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat...ance-broadcast
FAA segment 3 (2015-2020)

ADS-B In equipage will be based on user perceived benefit, but is
expected to be providing increased situational awareness and
efficiency benefits within this segment. Those aircraft who choose to
equip in advance of any mandate will see benefits associated with
preferential routes and specific applications. Limited radar
decommissioning will begin in the time frame with an ultimate goal of
a 50% reduction in the Secondary Surveillance Radar infrastructure.



http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0-07_Final.pdf
Will there be a back-up system for ADS-B?

Yes, the FAA recognizes that a back-up system is needed in case of
problems with the satellite system. In 2006, a team from the FAA,
industry, and the military performed an analysis, taking into account
such things as the operational capability needed during an outage, the
length of time the back-up system would be expected to operate during
an outage, and any overlap between the back-up and ADS-B that would
result in a vulnerability. The agency adopted the team’s
recommendation to maintain about half the current network of
*secondary* radars as a back-up system in case of a GPS outage.

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

I would enjoy reading supporting documentation for that assertion.


As this message thread refers to painting glider primary targets, it
would seem that post ADS-B, the FAA primary radars will be
decommissioned with the exception of those around the peripheral of
the US, hence my statement above.

I doubt that the primary radars in the US will be decommissioned

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.

Since before 1996, the FAA has been looking to get rid of primary radars.
9/11 was yet another excuse to try to get someone else to pay for the maintenance
and upgrades for NAS radars.


http://www.fcw.com/print/12_23/news/94989-1.html
Radar is an outdated technology, the FAA says. Moving to ADS-B will
let the agency eventually decommission some of the current ground
radars. According to an FAA report, radar is imperfect and sometimes
has trouble distinguishing airplanes from flocks of birds or patches
of rain.

As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

On Sun, 04 May 2008 08:47:53 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
:

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

I would enjoy reading supporting documentation for that assertion.


As this message thread refers to painting glider primary targets, it
would seem that post ADS-B, the FAA primary radars will be
decommissioned with the exception of those around the peripheral of
the US, hence my statement above.

I doubt that the primary radars in the US will be decommissioned

Although that is inconsistent with the FAA information cited in the
link I posted, we can only hope that your intuition is accurate It
would be a grave mistake in my lay opinion. I believe decommissioning
radars was only mentioned by the FAA as a hastily considered attempt
to overcome the financial disincentive of implementing ADS-B; while
we're speculating, it was probably initially suggested by the
contractor(s) who is(are) lobbying for NextGen.


The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.


How do the upgrades you mention imply that primary radars, located
other than around the periphery of the US, may be spared
decommissioning?

Since before 1996, the FAA has been looking to get rid of primary radars.
9/11 was yet another excuse to try to get someone else to pay for the maintenance
and upgrades for NAS radars.


Without primary radars there is no way, other than intercepts, of
knowing the true position of a flight. To intentionally lose that
empirical capability seems shortsighted. But then my opinion is only
based on incomplete knowledge of the system. Perhaps there are
alternate sources for such information (doubtful). For some reason
(possibly because contractors believe that if they don't mention it,
no one will notice) the loss of empirical flight location is not
addressed in the proposed ADS-B implementation.


http://www.fcw.com/print/12_23/news/94989-1.html
Radar is an outdated technology, the FAA says. Moving to ADS-B will
let the agency eventually decommission some of the current ground
radars. According to an FAA report, radar is imperfect and sometimes
has trouble distinguishing airplanes from flocks of birds or patches
of rain.

As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

Precisely.

Why is it that you and I are able to recognize that, and the FAA
cannot? What are we overlooking?

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including
the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also
have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.


How do the upgrades you mention imply that primary radars, located
other than around the periphery of the US, may be spared
decommissioning?

There would be little value in adding the ability to use the 200+ FAA primary
radars if they were going away soon. (ok, some of that 200+ number might be
beacon radar only)


As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

Precisely.

Why is it that you and I are able to recognize that, and the FAA
cannot? What are we overlooking?

The FAA beancounters know that the FAA's responsibility does not include
tracking and identifying bad guys. The b'crats are only thinking about
their budget and ways to get other agencies to pay for things.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

Bob Noel wrote:

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY
(NEADS) have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars,
including the FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11.


Initially, it was the other way round. Many of the present FAA enroute
radars are former ADC radars. The FAA expanded their enroute radar coverage
in the late fifties and early sixties by acquiring feeds on USAF radar.

"Bob Noel" wrote

I doubt that the primary radars in the US will be decommissioned

Since before 1996, the FAA has been looking to get rid of primary radars.
9/11 was yet another excuse to try to get someone else to pay for the
maintenance
and upgrades for NAS radars.

Is there a way that all of the TV station doppler weather radars could be made
to see airplanes, at the same time as looking at the weather?

I know they operate on different wavelengths, but could addition
transmitter/receivers be installed and used to supplement FAA radars?

Seems a shame to have all of those weather radars around, that could be helping
out tracking, or supplementing tracking aircraft.

I know there are probably a dozen reasons for this to not work, but could anyone
give a shot explaining what they are?
--
Jim in NC