Feds Want to Equipe Gliders With Transponders and Radios

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

I would enjoy reading supporting documentation for that assertion.


As this message thread refers to painting glider primary targets, it
would seem that post ADS-B, the FAA primary radars will be
decommissioned with the exception of those around the peripheral of
the US, hence my statement above.

I doubt that the primary radars in the US will be decommissioned

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.

Since before 1996, the FAA has been looking to get rid of primary radars.
9/11 was yet another excuse to try to get someone else to pay for the maintenance
and upgrades for NAS radars.


http://www.fcw.com/print/12_23/news/94989-1.html
Radar is an outdated technology, the FAA says. Moving to ADS-B will
let the agency eventually decommission some of the current ground
radars. According to an FAA report, radar is imperfect and sometimes
has trouble distinguishing airplanes from flocks of birds or patches
of rain.

As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

On Sun, 04 May 2008 08:47:53 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote in
:

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

What is being lost? Primary radar is making a comeback after 2001, not
going away.

I would enjoy reading supporting documentation for that assertion.


As this message thread refers to painting glider primary targets, it
would seem that post ADS-B, the FAA primary radars will be
decommissioned with the exception of those around the peripheral of
the US, hence my statement above.

I doubt that the primary radars in the US will be decommissioned

Although that is inconsistent with the FAA information cited in the
link I posted, we can only hope that your intuition is accurate It
would be a grave mistake in my lay opinion. I believe decommissioning
radars was only mentioned by the FAA as a hastily considered attempt
to overcome the financial disincentive of implementing ADS-B; while
we're speculating, it was probably initially suggested by the
contractor(s) who is(are) lobbying for NextGen.


The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.


How do the upgrades you mention imply that primary radars, located
other than around the periphery of the US, may be spared
decommissioning?

Since before 1996, the FAA has been looking to get rid of primary radars.
9/11 was yet another excuse to try to get someone else to pay for the maintenance
and upgrades for NAS radars.


Without primary radars there is no way, other than intercepts, of
knowing the true position of a flight. To intentionally lose that
empirical capability seems shortsighted. But then my opinion is only
based on incomplete knowledge of the system. Perhaps there are
alternate sources for such information (doubtful). For some reason
(possibly because contractors believe that if they don't mention it,
no one will notice) the loss of empirical flight location is not
addressed in the proposed ADS-B implementation.


http://www.fcw.com/print/12_23/news/94989-1.html
Radar is an outdated technology, the FAA says. Moving to ADS-B will
let the agency eventually decommission some of the current ground
radars. According to an FAA report, radar is imperfect and sometimes
has trouble distinguishing airplanes from flocks of birds or patches
of rain.

As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

Precisely.

Why is it that you and I are able to recognize that, and the FAA
cannot? What are we overlooking?

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY (NEADS)
have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars, including
the
FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11. (HI and AK systems also
have
been upgraded). Search for Battle Control System Fixed.


How do the upgrades you mention imply that primary radars, located
other than around the periphery of the US, may be spared
decommissioning?

There would be little value in adding the ability to use the 200+ FAA primary
radars if they were going away soon. (ok, some of that 200+ number might be
beacon radar only)


As antiquated as RADAR is, I don't think we can rely on the "bad guys" using
cooperative surv technology like transponders or ADS-B out.

Precisely.

Why is it that you and I are able to recognize that, and the FAA
cannot? What are we overlooking?

The FAA beancounters know that the FAA's responsibility does not include
tracking and identifying bad guys. The b'crats are only thinking about
their budget and ways to get other agencies to pay for things.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

Bob Noel wrote:

The air defense systems in the west (WADS) and the one in Rome, NY
(NEADS) have added the capability to take in feeds from domestic radars,
including the FAA enroute radars. This all occured post-9/11.


Initially, it was the other way round. Many of the present FAA enroute
radars are former ADC radars. The FAA expanded their enroute radar coverage
in the late fifties and early sixties by acquiring feeds on USAF radar.

"Bob Noel" wrote

I doubt that the primary radars in the US will be decommissioned

Since before 1996, the FAA has been looking to get rid of primary radars.
9/11 was yet another excuse to try to get someone else to pay for the
maintenance
and upgrades for NAS radars.

Is there a way that all of the TV station doppler weather radars could be made
to see airplanes, at the same time as looking at the weather?

I know they operate on different wavelengths, but could addition
transmitter/receivers be installed and used to supplement FAA radars?

Seems a shame to have all of those weather radars around, that could be helping
out tracking, or supplementing tracking aircraft.

I know there are probably a dozen reasons for this to not work, but could anyone
give a shot explaining what they are?
--
Jim in NC