I give up, after many, many years!

Nomen Nescio writes:

A plane is flown by sensations.

Explain autopilots.

When you catch an updraft coming over a ridge, do you wait for the altimeter
to tell you you're climbing? Or do you slightly lower the nose based on
FEELING the additional lift?

I look out the window and/or check the instruments to see what has changed.

How about landing. Are you FLYING visually or by feel? Do you NEED to look
at the airspeed indicator to tell if you're trending faster or slower?

Yes.

I fly by feel. I orient myself visually, either looking out the window or looking
at the instruments. I navigate visually. But I FLY by feel.

How many seconds can you fly by feel before you get into trouble.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Nomen Nescio writes:

A plane is flown by sensations.

Explain autopilots.

they don't fly airplanes any more thna you do, fjukktard.

When you catch an updraft coming over a ridge, do you wait for the
altimeter to tell you you're climbing? Or do you slightly lower the
nose based on FEELING the additional lift?

I look out the window to see what has
changed.


What, so looking over at the boulangerie across the road tells you what,
exactly?

How about landing. Are you FLYING visually or by feel? Do you NEED to
look at the airspeed indicator to tell if you're trending faster or
slower?

Yes.

I fly by feel. I orient myself visually, either looking out the
window or looking at the instruments. I navigate visually. But I FLY
by feel.

How many seconds can you fly by feel before you get into trouble.


So far? Many many millions.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:


I look out the window to see what has
changed.


What, so looking over at the boulangerie across the road tells you what,
exactly?


Bertie, according to the on line 3D map of Paris I just looked at, across
the street from 29 Rue du General Bertrand looks like another apartment
building. But if one turn's left from 29 Rue du General Bertrand and
crosses Rue de Sevres, you are at Hopital Necker, which is for sick
children. Anthony is probably in the hospital's long term care facility
for adults who are developmentally 7 years old and have no hope of
progressing.

Buster Hymen wrote in
02:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
:


I look out the window to see what has
changed.


What, so looking over at the boulangerie across the road tells you
what, exactly?


Bertie, according to the on line 3D map of Paris I just looked at,
across the street from 29 Rue du General Bertrand looks like another
apartment building. But if one turn's left from 29 Rue du General
Bertrand and crosses Rue de Sevres, you are at Hopital Necker, which
is for sick children. Anthony is probably in the hospital's long term
care facility for adults who are developmentally 7 years old and have
no hope of progressing.




You are a google god.


Bertie

I fly by feel. I orient myself visually, either looking out the window or
looking
at the instruments. I navigate visually. But I FLY by feel.

How many seconds can you fly by feel before you get into trouble.

Initially we were talking about instrument flight. Somehow, several posts
upstream this got conflated into instrument flight after a vacuum failure --
a completely different kettle of fish.

IMHO (and this from a 1300-hour VFR pilot and aircraft owner who stopped
just short of taking the IFR flight test in '02) MX's assertions regarding
ignoring physical sensations mesh perfectly with everything I've been taught
about instrument flight. You MUST ignore what your inner ear is telling
you and pay strict and sole attention to your instruments, or you've got 153
seconds (or whatever the time was) before you auger in.

This point is supported by every written text on instrument flight I've
read, and by every CFII I've flown with. I can't argue that certain
sensations help to confirm what's happening during certain phases of
instrument flight -- but to state that you don't place absolute trust in
your instruments in IMC does the students on this group a disservice.

Now, of course, if you want to talk about flying by the seat of your pants
after your vacuum pump goes T.U. in IMC, well, that's another thread.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On May 17, 8:31*pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
* You MUST ignore what your inner ear is telling
you and pay strict and sole attention to your instruments, or you've got 153
seconds (or whatever the time was) before you auger in.

Jay,

I think you missed my point.

Like I said originally to you in my original post, you ignore certain
sensations (inner ear like you say) but you DO NOT ignore the seat of
the pants sensation. Two different beasts but still sensations.

Mx blanket statement is flat out wrong. I only brought out the vacuum
failure as an extreme example, but even with a full working compliment
of instruments, you still need to listen to your sensations.

Read my ILS rational, where you feel the applied power to capture the
glide slope. If you don't feel it in the seat of your pants, you got
a bigger issue. If you are above the glide slope, and you reduce
power, the lack of pressure in your butt should happen, but if the
opposite happens, you have a problem.

Good example, though not likely, but very possible is having the trim
set in the nose down position rather then nose up. Apply power and
instead of maintaining level altitude, you just accelerated downhill
and you wouldn't get that firm seat of the pants feeling. The
building airspeed and the ABSENCE of an expected seat of the pants
feeling doesn't bode well. This would be an extreme example, but very
pluasible.

Remember, that the above sensations helps CONFIRM the instruments, NOT
the other way around.

but to state that you don't place absolute trust in
your instruments in IMC does the students on this group a disservice.

You can't. If you do that, you miss the whole point. It's a
combination that makes it all work. If you put 100 percent faith in
instruments and ignore what I am describing above, then you are
failing to recognize instrumentation or airplane setting errors, and
that will lead to a not so good ending.

It's a combination of instruments AND what you feel in the seat of
your pants (NOT your inner ear feelings) that makes a difference
between landing at minimums or butching up an approach.

Now, of course, if you want to talk about flying by the seat of your pants
after your vacuum pump goes T.U. in IMC, well, that's another thread.

Nope it is not, I flew my partial panel Friday the very same way if I
had full instrumentation. I just had less gauges to monitor :-)

Again, go up with an IA rated pilot, see what the real deal is all
about. That hood just doesn't do it any justice, nor will any MSFS
desktop simulator do it.

If you have not seen my video, go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCvDb3mCAf8
and then watch it at 1:39. Look at the cowling, and it was straight
and level relative to the camera, but in reality, I was in a climbing
right turn. You feel that climb in the seat of your pants which is
verified with your attitude indicator (when it works!).

In my case, I verified the VSI reading with the feeling in my rear
end. This has nothing to do with inner ear balance which is what you
need to ignore. Had I not felt that climb in my rear end, then I got
something big time wrong with the plane that I need to reconcile,
whether it be trim, or power or something.else like picking up icing
affecting my power performance.

Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more
importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation)

Allen

A Lieberman writes:

Read my ILS rational, where you feel the applied power to capture the
glide slope. If you don't feel it in the seat of your pants, you got
a bigger issue. If you are above the glide slope, and you reduce
power, the lack of pressure in your butt should happen, but if the
opposite happens, you have a problem.

To capture the glide slope, you watch the needles on your instruments.

Good example, though not likely, but very possible is having the trim
set in the nose down position rather then nose up. Apply power and
instead of maintaining level altitude, you just accelerated downhill
and you wouldn't get that firm seat of the pants feeling.

Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. Power controls altitude,
pitch controls speed. At constant pitch, increased power produces increased
lift, and thus produces a climb.

The building airspeed and the ABSENCE of an expected seat of the pants
feeling doesn't bode well. This would be an extreme example, but very
pluasible.

Just look at the instruments, and forget the seat of the pants. Your
altimeter will tell you about changes in altitude, and your airspeed indicator
will tell you about changes in speed.

Remember, that the above sensations helps CONFIRM the instruments, NOT
the other way around.

No. The instruments confirm. The instruments are the final authority. If
you are looking at the instruments to begin with (as you will be in IMC), you
don't need anything else, and paying attention to sensations of movement will
only get you into trouble.

You can't.

Yes, you can. You can fly entirely with instruments. You _have to_ fly
entirely with instruments in IMC. Doing anything else is dangerous.

It's a combination that makes it all work.

No combination is necessary.

If you put 100 percent faith in instruments and ignore what I am
describing above, then you are failing to recognize instrumentation
or airplane setting errors, and that will lead to a not so good ending.

Failing instruments in IMC usually lead to a not-so-good ending. The seat of
your pants won't help you.

It's a combination of instruments AND what you feel in the seat of
your pants (NOT your inner ear feelings) that makes a difference
between landing at minimums or butching up an approach.

No, it's instruments.

Again, go up with an IA rated pilot, see what the real deal is all
about. That hood just doesn't do it any justice, nor will any MSFS
desktop simulator do it.

This is unrelated to simulations or hoods. In the real world, in IMC, you fly
by instruments.

Look at the cowling, and it was straight
and level relative to the camera, but in reality, I was in a climbing
right turn.

If the cowling starts to move while you're flying, you have worse problems
than just failing instruments.

In my case, I verified the VSI reading with the feeling in my rear
end.

Your rear end is useless for measuring rate of climb.

Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more
importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation)

The seat of the pants sensation can get you killed.

On May 17, 9:37*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. *Power controls altitude,
pitch controls speed. *At constant pitch, increased power produces increased
lift, and thus produces a climb.

Did you miss the part about the trim setting in a nose down position?
The above answer is WRONG when you don't have the airplane configured
correctly. Ignore your senses, you are dead.

The building airspeed and the ABSENCE of an expected seat of the pants
feeling doesn't bode well. *This would be an extreme example, but very
pluasible.

Just look at the instruments, and forget the seat of the pants. *Your
altimeter will tell you about changes in altitude, and your airspeed indicator
will tell you about changes in speed.

Did you miss the part about the possibility of icing affecting the
pitot static system? You fly a real plane as described above and
ignore the seat of your pants sensation and you are dead.

No. *The instruments confirm. *The instruments are the final authority.. *If
you are looking at the instruments to begin with (as you will be in IMC), you
don't need anything else, and paying attention to sensations of movement will
only get you into trouble.

WRONG. Please RE-READ MY POST.

You can't.

Yes, you can. *You can fly entirely with instruments. *You _have to_ fly
entirely with instruments in IMC. *Doing anything else is dangerous.

It's a combination that makes it all work.

No combination is necessary.

WRONG. Until you get in a real plane, you have no experience to even
comment on this thread. AGAIN, I use MSFS, and it does not compare
one iota, so I am talking from experience both from the simulation
part and flying a real airplane? Can you say this????

It's a combination of instruments AND what you feel in the seat of
your pants (NOT your inner ear feelings) that makes a difference
between landing at minimums or butching up an approach.

No, it's instruments.

and if the instruments fail or glide slope fails or localizer? and you
don't identify it with the seat of your pants? You are one dead
puppy.

This is unrelated to simulations or hoods. *In the real world, in IMC, you fly
by instruments.

WRONG. Take some flight lessons.

Look at the cowling, and it was straight
and level relative to the camera, but in reality, I was in a climbing
right turn.

If the cowling starts to move while you're flying, you have worse problems
than just failing instruments.

WRONG. Cowling is a visual reference point that just like my horizon
indicator showed straight and level in IMC. If I followed your advice
and trusted my instruments, I wouldn't be typing this post. I WOULD
BE DEAD!

In my case, I verified the VSI reading with the feeling in my rear
end.

Your rear end is useless for measuring rate of climb.

It is perfectly useable to verify climb. I never said rate of climb.

Bottom line, in IMC your seat of pants sensation will save your butt,
but you got to use it by listening to what it's telling you, or more
importantly NOT telling you. (seat of the pants sensation)

The seat of the pants sensation can get you killed.

WRONG. See above.

writes:

Did you miss the part about the trim setting in a nose down position?
The above answer is WRONG when you don't have the airplane configured
correctly.

Sorry, I try to keep the airplane configured correctly, so I don't have much
experience with incorrect configurations.

All of the sources I've consulted contradict all that you are saying. I have
no reason to believe that you are more reliable than all those other sources.

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:

Applying power will not accelerate you downhill. Power controls altitude,
pitch controls speed. At constant pitch, increased power produces increased
lift, and thus produces a climb.

And once again you parrot something you've read without the slightest
understanding and absolutely no concept of context.

The real world is not one or zero with everything black or white.

Like a lot of what you spout, this is GENERALLY true, but not ALWAYS true.

snip remaining babbling nonsense

--
Jim Pennino

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