Mxsmanic , IFR sensations, and some other stuff

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

A Lieberman writes:

ANSWER HIS QUESTION ABOVE. WHICH ENGINE INDICATORS

For a piston airplane, tachometer, manifold pressure, CHT and EGT, engine
monitor if I have one (I do in the Bonanza).

That's not answering the question. Which one do you look at first
fjukkwit? And why would you look anyway? On my airplane, for instance, the
vast majority of the instruments are concealed after engine start..
Only three left.



Bertie

On May 20, 4:51 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote :

A Lieberman writes:

ANSWER HIS QUESTION ABOVE. WHICH ENGINE INDICATORS

For a piston airplane, tachometer, manifold pressure, CHT and EGT, engine
monitor if I have one (I do in the Bonanza).

That's not answering the question. Which one do you look at first
fjukkwit? And why would you look anyway? On my airplane, for instance, the
vast majority of the instruments are concealed after engine start..
Only three left.

Bertie

Is it a series 35 or 50?

I'd look at the Commit Charge on Task Manager to see if I had enough
RAM.

wrote in
:

On May 20, 4:51 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote
:

A Lieberman writes:

ANSWER HIS QUESTION ABOVE. WHICH ENGINE INDICATORS

For a piston airplane, tachometer, manifold pressure, CHT and EGT,
engine monitor if I have one (I do in the Bonanza).

That's not answering the question. Which one do you look at first
fjukkwit? And why would you look anyway? On my airplane, for
instance, the vast majority of the instruments are concealed after
engine start.. Only three left.

Bertie

Is it a series 35 or 50?



B757. there are two center screens, the upper one dispays EPR N1 and EGT
and the lower screen displays the rest of the stuff. After engine start
we shut of the lower screen and if the EICAS system has something to
tell us that's of any interest on that screen, like your oil has all
disappeared, for instance, then the screen re-appears. We leave it off
for the duration of the flight, though. Keeps the clutter in your head
to a minimum.
In the event of an engine failure, though, that screen is the least of
your worries. Keeping the airplane straight is the main prioirity and of
course you're going to feel the yaw in your ass before you notice
anything else. You'd be onto the instruments straight away to determine
th ecorrection required, though you'd already have a very good idea, and
a big bootful of rudder and/ or aileron to keep you from rolling on your
back. After this has settled down, you ensure your flight path is
correct, and then you'd check out your engine instruments to determine
what the problem is. And you have to do this carefully and judiciously,
because they can lie to you too, particularly if some damage has
occured. Of course, in a piston there's an additional problem that
mxtard has no idea of either, and that is that the MP is next to useless
in determining the side that's failed because the MP you might have been
pulling could be the same as ambient anyway. Anyhow, the point is, the
first clue you're going to get is your head bouncing off either a window
or your copilot. If you've been staring at your engine gauges
anticipating a failure as you fly along, you're probably going to fly
into something sooner rather than later....
But of course MX would ignore that feeling in his ass as one of the
donkeys retired and quickly analize his clocks. Then, and only then,
would he take the appropriate action, which , by this time, would be to
make a brief utterance of regret as his aircraft entered the earth
inverted.



Bertie

On May 20, 7:16 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote :



On May 20, 4:51 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote
:

A Lieberman writes:

ANSWER HIS QUESTION ABOVE. WHICH ENGINE INDICATORS

For a piston airplane, tachometer, manifold pressure, CHT and EGT,
engine monitor if I have one (I do in the Bonanza).

That's not answering the question. Which one do you look at first
fjukkwit? And why would you look anyway? On my airplane, for
instance, the vast majority of the instruments are concealed after
engine start.. Only three left.

Bertie

Is it a series 35 or 50?

B757. there are two center screens, the upper one dispays EPR N1 and EGT
and the lower screen displays the rest of the stuff. After engine start
we shut of the lower screen and if the EICAS system has something to
tell us that's of any interest on that screen, like your oil has all
disappeared, for instance, then the screen re-appears. We leave it off
for the duration of the flight, though. Keeps the clutter in your head
to a minimum.
In the event of an engine failure, though, that screen is the least of
your worries. Keeping the airplane straight is the main prioirity and of
course you're going to feel the yaw in your ass before you notice
anything else. You'd be onto the instruments straight away to determine
th ecorrection required, though you'd already have a very good idea, and
a big bootful of rudder and/ or aileron to keep you from rolling on your
back. After this has settled down, you ensure your flight path is
correct, and then you'd check out your engine instruments to determine
what the problem is. And you have to do this carefully and judiciously,
because they can lie to you too, particularly if some damage has
occured. Of course, in a piston there's an additional problem that
mxtard has no idea of either, and that is that the MP is next to useless
in determining the side that's failed because the MP you might have been
pulling could be the same as ambient anyway. Anyhow, the point is, the
first clue you're going to get is your head bouncing off either a window
or your copilot. If you've been staring at your engine gauges
anticipating a failure as you fly along, you're probably going to fly
into something sooner rather than later....
But of course MX would ignore that feeling in his ass as one of the
donkeys retired and quickly analize his clocks. Then, and only then,
would he take the appropriate action, which , by this time, would be to
make a brief utterance of regret as his aircraft entered the earth
inverted.

Bertie

no fair! His bonanza doesn't have turbo props!

Hell yes, it's the kick in the ass that usually lets you know
something untoward is in the offing, along with auditory cues, g-
loading, etc., but if you don't verify with instruments then you could
end up well and truly screwed...and sometimes that helps to only a
point. There was the case of the airliner in central america
(1980's?) that went into an inverted dive because the pilot's
artificial horizon (if memory serves) was slaved to the co-pilot's and
that one had a wiggy connection such that it was giving intermittently
correct readings. They did a perfect 1g maneuver too- right into the
ground (at night)....but the wings and such were come off first.

I've always wondered why, in such circumstances, one would not take
the time to verify the situation by checking rate of climb/descent and
indicated airspeed rather than trust *one* instrument?

wrote in
:

On May 20, 7:16 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
wrote
innews:c0626994-688d-465b-b9bd-3d9d4878a612
@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.c
om:



On May 20, 4:51 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote
:

A Lieberman writes:

ANSWER HIS QUESTION ABOVE. WHICH ENGINE INDICATORS

For a piston airplane, tachometer, manifold pressure, CHT and
EGT, engine monitor if I have one (I do in the Bonanza).

That's not answering the question. Which one do you look at first
fjukkwit? And why would you look anyway? On my airplane, for
instance, the vast majority of the instruments are concealed after
engine start.. Only three left.

Bertie

Is it a series 35 or 50?

B757. there are two center screens, the upper one dispays EPR N1 and
EGT and the lower screen displays the rest of the stuff. After engine
start we shut of the lower screen and if the EICAS system has
something to tell us that's of any interest on that screen, like your
oil has all disappeared, for instance, then the screen re-appears. We
leave it off for the duration of the flight, though. Keeps the
clutter in your head to a minimum.
In the event of an engine failure, though, that screen is the least
of your worries. Keeping the airplane straight is the main prioirity
and of course you're going to feel the yaw in your ass before you
notice anything else. You'd be onto the instruments straight away to
determine th ecorrection required, though you'd already have a very
good idea, and a big bootful of rudder and/ or aileron to keep you
from rolling on your back. After this has settled down, you ensure
your flight path is correct, and then you'd check out your engine
instruments to determine what the problem is. And you have to do this
carefully and judiciously, because they can lie to you too,
particularly if some damage has occured. Of course, in a piston
there's an additional problem that mxtard has no idea of either, and
that is that the MP is next to useless in determining the side that's
failed because the MP you might have been pulling could be the same
as ambient anyway. Anyhow, the point is, the first clue you're going
to get is your head bouncing off either a window or your copilot. If
you've been staring at your engine gauges anticipating a failure as
you fly along, you're probably going to fly into something sooner
rather than later.... But of course MX would ignore that feeling in
his ass as one of the donkeys retired and quickly analize his clocks.
Then, and only then, would he take the appropriate action, which , by
this time, would be to make a brief utterance of regret as his
aircraft entered the earth inverted.

Bertie

no fair! His bonanza doesn't have turbo props!

Hell yes, it's the kick in the ass that usually lets you know
something untoward is in the offing, along with auditory cues, g-
loading, etc., but if you don't verify with instruments then you could
end up well and truly screwed...and sometimes that helps to only a
point. There was the case of the airliner in central america
(1980's?) that went into an inverted dive because the pilot's
artificial horizon (if memory serves) was slaved to the co-pilot's and
that one had a wiggy connection such that it was giving intermittently
correct readings. They did a perfect 1g maneuver too- right into the
ground (at night)....but the wings and such were come off first.

I've always wondered why, in such circumstances, one would not take
the time to verify the situation by checking rate of climb/descent and
indicated airspeed rather than trust *one* instrument?




Well, that was an interesting one. It was in Panama.Copa airlines, I
think.
You've got it pretty much right. The skipper was the chief pilot and
the FO was the greenest in the company, so there would have been a steep
cockpit gradient. IOW the FO would have been a bit reluctant to speak
out. Also, being a Latino cutlure, and paternal in it's roots, there is
an even stronger reluctance to criticise one's superiors. Maternal
societies produce behavior patterns more condusive to what we would call
good CRM.
Having said that, I don't know if there would have been enough awareness
of the situation on the part of the FO anyway. The 737-200 has a
ferocious roll rate when the stick is fully displaced. We're talking a
roll rate much faster than a cherokee or similar, BTW, and they were
probably on their backs before the FO could figure out what was going
on. As well as that, he might have been doiing something else, like
tuning a radio or picking up his clipboard when it all started.
Like you said, they did suspect the connectors on the back af the
Captains horizon, but if you saw the film, the guys who examined the
debris pulled the connectors through their seats on the wire side of the
connection. The hole they pulled them through was smaller than the
connector. The connecting wire, to be installed, has to be pushed clean
through, the connector attached, and then the wire pulled from the far
side to seat the connector. By pulling them clean through, they squashed
the connectors and destroyed any evidence of a loose connection forever.
They did this right on camera!
However, that airplane came from Brittania airlines and the Captain's
hrizon was modified in all of the Brittania 737s to come off a different
bus than Boeing origianlly intended. They did this to improve the
battery endurance so they could make longer overwater flights. Normally
the capt's horizon ( Flight Director is the proper term, in this case,
but we call them horizons just the same) is wired to the standby bus,
which is powered by the battery. Brittania had theirs modified, coming
off the #2 AC bus. Point being they interfered with the natural order of
things and that is often not such a good thing.
So, it is entirely possible that the horizon display was sticking in
various places and confusing the captain. He could easily have looked at
the standby horizon which is just to the right of the central display,
but if he was wrestling with the airplane and down to lizard brain
capability with the nonsensical picture he was getting he was probably
too far behind his mental power curve to do that. According to the
theory it not only froze, but it would then unlock and update suddenly
and then freeze again. It all certainly makes sense when you look at the
flight path. It's only a theory though. I hope if anything similar
hapens to me that his experience will cause me to have a quick look at
the standby horizon.
Another possibility is that this was the first 737 rudder hardover
accident. I kind of doubt it, and in fact, I'm not 100% convinced the
other two 737s were brought down by this, but the NTSB are pretty sure
so I'll defer to them!

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Well, that was an interesting one. It was in Panama.Copa airlines, I
think.
You've got it pretty much right. The skipper was the chief pilot and
the FO was the greenest in the company, so there would have been a steep
cockpit gradient. IOW the FO would have been a bit reluctant to speak
out. Also, being a Latino cutlure, and paternal in it's roots, there is
an even stronger reluctance to criticise one's superiors. Maternal
societies produce behavior patterns more condusive to what we would call
good CRM.
/snip/

If that's the one I'm thinking about, the Captain was also a relatively
low time pilot. He was a celebrated military hero in his country, but
actually had just a few hours in fighters, and a few in Hercs. Then,
after military retirement, *bam*, chief pilot of a "major" airline, with
about 1000 total time. And yes, the -200 does have a very sporting roll
rate, which certainly exacerbated the situation.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane