Winch launch clinic at Faribault, Minnesota

I have no intention of getting into any exchange with Derek who has a
profoundly biased view of winch launch. There is a substantial body of
engineering measurements and expert opinion that contradicts just about
everything Derek has to say. Knowledgeable people just ignore him since his
prupose is just to start arguments.

His favorite winch (Which he serves as the chief cheerleader - probably to
the great embarassment of the maker.) exibits huge tension oscillations
which have been measured by logging tensionmeters. These oscillations are
easily felt and disturbing to all pilots - except Derek who seems somehow
unable to notice them. If you want to see tension logs of these
oscillations, contact me privately. I can link anybody to videos showing
this winch downshifting and breaking winch ropes.

I can assure everyone that Frank Whiteley can read an engine tachometer
better than just about anybody. There was no overrevving of the Faribault
winch, it was simply geared too tall to use 3rd gear. Using second gear
also eliminated the surging 3-2 downshift near the top of the launch.

Bill Daniels


"Derek Copeland" wrote in message
...
We don't seem to get 'tension oscillations' using basically similar
winches in the UK! Deliberately launching in second gear sounds like a
good way of over-reving the winch engine or running out of available cable
speed, unless there is a reasonable headwind. Perhaps Bill should have a
word with our gearbox supplier? We just launch in 'Drive' without
experiencing any of these problems!

We weren't told how long the winch run was, but I note that Bill felt
that 1500ft launches were usually high enough for contacting thermals.
That also mirrors our finding on this side of the pond. More height is
alway welcome though!

Derek Copeland


At 15:39 23 May 2008, Bill Daniels wrote:

"John Scott" wrote in message
...
What type of winch was being used?

John Scott


It was an ex-Canadian Gerhlein style single drum winch with a Chevy 350
V8

and a GM TH400 series transmission. It's a well maintained example of a

1960's style winch. It's not ideal but cheap enough to get started
with
winch launch. The ~1500' AGL launches it delivered were just fine for

contacting thermals. Had we not been in training mode, I could have
thermalled away on almost every launch.

The power was just right to allow the glider pilot to control airspeed
with
pitch inputs but it did exhibit tension oscillations whenever the launch
was
disturbed by a rough gear change or thermals as is typical with this
type
of
winch. We were able to reduce oscillations by using 2nd gear. 2nd gear

also eliminates the tendency for the TH400 to make a 3 - 2 downshift near

the top of the launch.

A modern tension controlled winch would probably increase the release
heights to 2000' AGL by holding rope tension nearly perfect.

Bill Daniels

1800ft launches from a 3900ft cable run is 46% of that run, including the
ground run, which is pretty good. How much headwind component were you
launching into?

The K21 does seem to winch launch particularly well, especially when flown
solo. This type holds the current height record for a conventional winch
launch by the way. From memory this is about 5600 feet, set in Holland.

Derek Copeland


At 15:13 24 May 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:

1. 1800agl (private K21), ~3900ft run.
2. Aborted launch. There were variations due to pilot training,
winch driver training, wind, so there a few may have been 1300ft.
Average with the Grob seemed to be about 1500agl. Bill will have to
comment further.
3. Actually, the K21 just seemed to perform better than the G103, but
a very small sample. Again Bill will have to comment.
4. The rope used was 1/4" Amsteel II type (not clear which type, see
www.samsonrope.com), rated at nominally 3800-5300lbs minimum
strength. This is a 12-strand Dyneema 75 core with a double braided
polyester cover. 2.2 times the weight of uncovered rope. No specific
knowledge of how well used the rope was. The is a temporary splice
that can be made using a double fisherman knot and duct tape, but we
found those failed after about 20 launches. The knots didn't fail,
but the knot appeared to cause damage near the end of the knotted
area. A better repair was to slide back the covering, tuck splice the
12-strand, then work the covering back over the splice. I suspect the
rope had been pretty well used before we used it. I make a good field
fid from the tip of a 10 1/2 (6.5mm) knitting needle and aluminum
tube that greatly accelerate the splicing process. Don had a large
fid that was a chore to use and a plastic fid that just wouldn't work.

We figured the final drive ratio at 2.92, which is too tall. The
winch came with instructions to only launch in 3rd, but after the
first launch, I used and trained on 2nd (1-2 upshift) for the rest of
the clinic. 3.55-4.11 final would probably allow use of 3rd, depending
on engine torque/hp/redline. This appears to be an LT-4 350/330hp 4-
bolt, with Holley 4bbl. 340lbs@4500 and 330hp@5800. Redline 6300.
There were tags riveted on the winch indicated the transmission was a
TH400 installed in 1999 and engine an LT-4 installed in 2003. There
are some tweaks that could make this a better winch, but it wasn't bad
and fairly easy to drive and train on.

Frank Whiteley

I am a senior instructor at a major UK gliding club and regularly take
winch launches on Tost and Skylaunch winches, which both have large
capacity GM Marine V8 engines and TH400 changing 3 speed automatic
gearboxes. To me, and everyone else who launches on them, they give smooth
and safe launches. The Skylaunch is the preferable design as it is much
more modern and fitted with a semi-automatic form of launch control. The
Tost is purely manually controlled. Please see the following videos as
examples of this: The one winch launch failure was simulated by the
gliding instructor as a training exercise BTW:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCQTkCFqLjc
(Tost)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2SD7USG1n4
(Tost and Skylaunch)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNcEtvcnnGc
(Skylaunch)

Derek Copeland

At 16:21 24 May 2008, Bill Daniels wrote:
I have no intention of getting into any exchange with Derek who has a
profoundly biased view of winch launch. There is a substantial body of
engineering measurements and expert opinion that contradicts just about
everything Derek has to say. Knowledgeable people just ignore him since
his
prupose is just to start arguments.

His favorite winch (Which he serves as the chief cheerleader - probably
to

the great embarassment of the maker.) exibits huge tension oscillations
which have been measured by logging tensionmeters. These oscillations
are

easily felt and disturbing to all pilots - except Derek who seems somehow

unable to notice them. If you want to see tension logs of these
oscillations, contact me privately. I can link anybody to videos
showing

this winch downshifting and breaking winch ropes.

I can assure everyone that Frank Whiteley can read an engine tachometer
better than just about anybody. There was no overrevving of the
Faribault

winch, it was simply geared too tall to use 3rd gear. Using second gear

also eliminated the surging 3-2 downshift near the top of the launch.

Bill Daniels


"Derek Copeland" wrote in message
...
We don't seem to get 'tension oscillations' using basically similar
winches in the UK! Deliberately launching in second gear sounds like
a
good way of over-reving the winch engine or running out of available
cable
speed, unless there is a reasonable headwind. Perhaps Bill should have
a
word with our gearbox supplier? We just launch in 'Drive' without
experiencing any of these problems!

We weren't told how long the winch run was, but I note that Bill felt
that 1500ft launches were usually high enough for contacting thermals.
That also mirrors our finding on this side of the pond. More height is
alway welcome though!

Derek Copeland

On May 24, 10:44 am, Derek Copeland wrote:
1800ft launches from a 3900ft cable run is 46% of that run, including the
ground run, which is pretty good. How much headwind component were you
launching into?

The K21 does seem to winch launch particularly well, especially when flown
solo. This type holds the current height record for a conventional winch
launch by the way. From memory this is about 5600 feet, set in Holland.

Derek Copeland

At 15:13 24 May 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:



1. 1800agl (private K21), ~3900ft run.
2. Aborted launch. There were variations due to pilot training,
winch driver training, wind, so there a few may have been 1300ft.
Average with the Grob seemed to be about 1500agl. Bill will have to
comment further.
3. Actually, the K21 just seemed to perform better than the G103, but
a very small sample. Again Bill will have to comment.
4. The rope used was 1/4" Amsteel II type (not clear which type, see
www.samsonrope.com), rated at nominally 3800-5300lbs minimum
strength. This is a 12-strand Dyneema 75 core with a double braided
polyester cover. 2.2 times the weight of uncovered rope. No specific
knowledge of how well used the rope was. The is a temporary splice
that can be made using a double fisherman knot and duct tape, but we
found those failed after about 20 launches. The knots didn't fail,
but the knot appeared to cause damage near the end of the knotted
area. A better repair was to slide back the covering, tuck splice the
12-strand, then work the covering back over the splice. I suspect the
rope had been pretty well used before we used it. I make a good field
fid from the tip of a 10 1/2 (6.5mm) knitting needle and aluminum
tube that greatly accelerate the splicing process. Don had a large
fid that was a chore to use and a plastic fid that just wouldn't work.

We figured the final drive ratio at 2.92, which is too tall. The
winch came with instructions to only launch in 3rd, but after the
first launch, I used and trained on 2nd (1-2 upshift) for the rest of
the clinic. 3.55-4.11 final would probably allow use of 3rd, depending
on engine torque/hp/redline. This appears to be an LT-4 350/330hp 4-
bolt, with Holley 4bbl. 340lbs@4500 and 330hp@5800. Redline 6300.
There were tags riveted on the winch indicated the transmission was a
TH400 installed in 1999 and engine an LT-4 installed in 2003. There
are some tweaks that could make this a better winch, but it wasn't bad
and fairly easy to drive and train on.

Frank Whiteley

Monday was never more than 5kts, normally less. Tuesday 12-18kts.
Weds 10kts and a bit cross.

Thank you for the additional information Frank. 1500 - 1800 ft winch
launches from a 3900ft cable run is in the range 38-46%, which is about
what you would expect with a manually driven winch fitted with synthetic
cable in such conditions.

I am rather curious to know why this particular winch is so highly geared?
This probably justified your decision to launch in second gear. With a more
sensible axle ratio, automatic gear changes during the full climb in
'drive' would have been avoided. Our experience in the UK suggests that
automatic gearbox up changes during the ground run do not cause any
problems.

You cannot succesfully repair winch cables by tieing knots. The same is
also true for aerotow ropes. Synthetic cables and ropes have to be
spliced, and steel cables have to be spliced or crimped with brass
ferrules. We tried out synthetic cable at our club, but went back to steel
cables, partly for reasons of cost, but also because it seemed to take an
age to splice broken cables back together. As Frank rightly points out
below, having the right tools for the job and a bit of training in how to
do it for the winch drivers would have speeded things up a lot.

For general information, there are some computer controlled winches being
developed that should give higher and better controlled winch launches
still. The existing semi-automated Skylaunch winch will already give 45%
of cable run or better launches in zero head wind, using lightweight
synthetic cable and about 42% using heavier (but much cheaper) 4.5mm steel
cable. Achieved height also depends on pilot skill. Terms and conditions
apply!

Derek Copeland


At 18:27 24 May 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:
Monday was never more than 5kts, normally less. Tuesday 12-18kts. Weds
10kts and a bit cross.


On May 24, 10:44 am, Derek Copeland wrote:
1800ft launches from a 3900ft cable run is 46% of that run, including
the ground run, which is pretty good. How much headwind component were you
launching into?


At 15:13 24 May 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:


1. 1800agl (private K21), ~3900ft run.
2. Aborted launch. There were variations due to pilot training,
winch driver training, wind, so there a few may have been 1300ft.
Average with the Grob seemed to be about 1500agl. Bill will have to
comment further.
3. Actually, the K21 just seemed to perform better than the G103,
but
a very small sample. Again Bill will have to comment.
4. The rope used was 1/4" Amsteel II type (not clear which type,
see
www.samsonrope.com), rated at nominally 3800-5300lbs minimum
strength. This is a 12-strand Dyneema 75 core with a double braided
polyester cover. 2.2 times the weight of uncovered rope. No specific
knowledge of how well used the rope was. The is a temporary splice
that can be made using a double fisherman knot and duct tape, but we
found those failed after about 20 launches. The knots didn't fail,
but the knot appeared to cause damage near the end of the knotted
area. A better repair was to slide back the covering, tuck splice
the
12-strand, then work the covering back over the splice. I suspect
the
rope had been pretty well used before we used it. I make a good
field
fid from the tip of a 10 1/2 (6.5mm) knitting needle and aluminum
tube that greatly accelerate the splicing process. Don had a large
fid that was a chore to use and a plastic fid that just wouldn't
work.

We figured the final drive ratio at 2.92, which is too tall. The
winch came with instructions to only launch in 3rd, but after the
first launch, I used and trained on 2nd (1-2 upshift) for the rest of
the clinic. 3.55-4.11 final would probably allow use of 3rd,
depending
on engine torque/hp/redline. This appears to be an LT-4 350/330hp 4-
bolt, with Holley 4bbl. 340lbs@4500 and 330hp@5800. Redline 6300.
There were tags riveted on the winch indicated the transmission was a
TH400 installed in 1999 and engine an LT-4 installed in 2003. There
are some tweaks that could make this a better winch, but it wasn't
bad
and fairly easy to drive and train on.

Frank Whiteley

On May 25, 1:44 am, Derek Copeland wrote:
snip

I am rather curious to know why this particular winch is so highly geared?
This probably justified your decision to launch in second gear. With a more
sensible axle ratio, automatic gear changes during the full climb in
'drive' would have been avoided. Our experience in the UK suggests that
automatic gearbox up changes during the ground run do not cause any
problems.

You cannot succesfully repair winch cables by tieing knots. The same is
also true for aerotow ropes. Synthetic cables and ropes have to be
spliced, and steel cables have to be spliced or crimped with brass
ferrules. We tried out synthetic cable at our club, but went back to steel
cables, partly for reasons of cost, but also because it seemed to take an
age to splice broken cables back together. As Frank rightly points out
below, having the right tools for the job and a bit of training in how to
do it for the winch drivers would have speeded things up a lot.

snip

I suspect many 'Gehrlein' type designs used the differential that came
with the vehicle the supplied the original engine and automatic
transmission. Typically, final drives were in the 2.7X-2.9X range.
My F150 is a 4WD Off-Road with a final drive of 3.73, which also
increases the towing capacity, but it also has a tall overdrive gear
(4th) and locking torque converter. These final drives became more
common after 1990 when locking torque converters, electronic shifting,
and overdrive automatics became standard. Higher ratios of the
'muscle car' ;and 'hot rod' types were commonly matched with 4-speed
manual transmissions from the 1950's through the 1970's. Refitting
cost a few hundred dollars, time and effort, so it wasn't done.

The Amsteel II in use takes a bit longer to splice with the covering.
Uncovered 12-strand can be spliced almost a quickly as steel swaging
with a good fid and a little practice. I'm not talking about the
Class II tuck splice on the Samson site, which involves tapering and
stitching, but a simple 3x3 or 4x4 tuck splice.

Frank

Tost axles on the other hand came out of a Mercedes light truck (I
believe), so tend to be too low geared! They are also turned upside down
to get the correct direction of rotation for the top loading drums, which
doesn't exactly help the lubrication of the crown wheel and pinion. The
Skylaunch has fairly large diameter, narrow, bottom loading, drums with
guide tubes and rails, so the axle is the right way up (for good
lubrication) and the need for level wind pay on gear is avoided. Simplify
and add lightness, as they say. The hallmark of good design.

Derek Copeland

At 17:10 25 May 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On May 25, 1:44 am, Derek Copeland wrote:


I am rather curious to know why this particular winch is so highly
geared?
This probably justified your decision to launch in second gear. With a
more
sensible axle ratio, automatic gear changes during the full climb in
'drive' would have been avoided. Our experience in the UK suggests
that
automatic gearbox up changes during the ground run do not cause any
problems.

You cannot succesfully repair winch cables by tieing knots. The same
is
also true for aerotow ropes. Synthetic cables and ropes have to be
spliced, and steel cables have to be spliced or crimped with brass
ferrules. We tried out synthetic cable at our club, but went back to
steel
cables, partly for reasons of cost, but also because it seemed to take
an
age to splice broken cables back together. As Frank rightly points out
below, having the right tools for the job and a bit of training in how
to
do it for the winch drivers would have speeded things up a lot.



I suspect many 'Gehrlein' type designs used the differential that came
with the vehicle the supplied the original engine and automatic
transmission. Typically, final drives were in the 2.7X-2.9X range.
My F150 is a 4WD Off-Road with a final drive of 3.73, which also
increases the towing capacity, but it also has a tall overdrive gear
(4th) and locking torque converter. These final drives became more
common after 1990 when locking torque converters, electronic shifting,
and overdrive automatics became standard. Higher ratios of the
'muscle car' ;and 'hot rod' types were commonly matched with 4-speed
manual transmissions from the 1950's through the 1970's. Refitting
cost a few hundred dollars, time and effort, so it wasn't done.

The Amsteel II in use takes a bit longer to splice with the covering.
Uncovered 12-strand can be spliced almost a quickly as steel swaging
with a good fid and a little practice. I'm not talking about the
Class II tuck splice on the Samson site, which involves tapering and
stitching, but a simple 3x3 or 4x4 tuck splice.

Frank