The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.

On May 15, 11:40 am, "JR Weiss"
wrote:
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote:
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f...AlphaNotes.pdf
Here is a study that mentions a critical aspect of the issue of canard flight.
High angle of attack allows for very fast roll rates in general. A wing
designed for high angle of attack becomes a superior wing in general.

Where does it say that? What was the max roll rate of the Wright Flyer? AJ-37
Viggen? A-4E Skyhawk? F-5E Tiger?



SNIP a ton:
The two fastest 'rollers' Iknow of are the F104 Starfighter and the
F5 series.
The 104 clocks out at about 420 degrees per second - note the Flight
Manual limitation is 360 degrees of roll - if below 1/2 G, 180
degrees. This is to stay out of inertial coupling, which is a really
good idea..
The F5 series is credited with 450 degrees per second. I have never
flown a T38 or an F5. so can't speak to that.
However, I have done maximum rate rolls in a 104A. This requires the
pilot to grab the canopy rail with his free hand to brace himself
against the lateral acceleration. Otherwise he will be slammed
sideways in the seat and inadvertently take out some aileron.
Additionally, if he desires to roll out at any given bank angle he has
to start recovery with about 45 degrees to go. The 'book' says 90, but
that's for non-acrobatic/ACM-current pilots.
It is difficult to see the value of higher rates of roll; it's hard
enough at 420 degrees per second to monitor what's going on outside
the airplane. But that rate of onset/recovery sure does make for
snappy pointed (hesitation) rolls and counters scissors by dissimilar
aircraf very nicely.
Hmm. something new - an anti-bot countermeasure!
Walt BJ

On Mon, 26 May 2008 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT), WaltBJ
wrote:


SNIP a ton:
The two fastest 'rollers' Iknow of are the F104 Starfighter and the
F5 series.
The 104 clocks out at about 420 degrees per second - note the Flight
Manual limitation is 360 degrees of roll - if below 1/2 G, 180
degrees. This is to stay out of inertial coupling, which is a really
good idea..
The F5 series is credited with 450 degrees per second. I have never
flown a T38 or an F5. so can't speak to that.

I logged time in the T-38 in pilot training and flying some FCF
profiles afterward during my years as a UPT instructor, then four
years doing instructor training in Fighter Lead-In flying the AT-38B.

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"
www.thunderchief.org

On May 27, 6:18*am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2008 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT), WaltBJ

wrote:

SNIP a ton:
* The two fastest 'rollers' Iknow of are the F104 Starfighter and the
F5 series.
The 104 clocks out at about 420 degrees per second - note the Flight
Manual limitation is 360 degrees of roll - if below 1/2 G, 180
degrees. This is to stay out of inertial coupling, which is a really
good idea..
The F5 series is credited with 450 degrees per second. I have never
flown a T38 or an F5. so can't speak to that.

I logged time in the T-38 in pilot training and flying some FCF
profiles afterward during my years as a UPT instructor, then four
years doing instructor training in Fighter Lead-In flying the AT-38B.

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need
elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule
to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and
corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction.


High angle of attack roll rate is critical to either following the
target or breaking off.


Matching the target is advised and it is as follows.

1. elevator deflect and roll positive g.
2. As 180 degree roll is passed a person needs to do a single
elevator motion. And if you get it wrong the maneuver turns into a
dive.
3. SO push on the elevator to mAKE THE FORWARD CORCKSCREW POSSIBLE.

So it is a hard thing to get the hang of and it has negative gs.

A special modification was to aerodynamics. What can be changed. A
dive as arule is always sort of expected. SO a vertical exit from the
corkscrew appear the false exit. A fake exit is possible
aerodynamically. A simple vertical followed by a return to the
corkscrew really making it impossible to follow.

ALWAYS lossing the trailing aircraft.

"Douglas Eagleson" wrote in message
...
On May 27, 6:18 am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2008 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT), WaltBJ

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need
elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule
to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and
corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction.

Oh great a janitor advising a fighter pilot on air combat tactics

Sheesh

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote in message
...
On May 27, 6:18 am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2008 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT), WaltBJ

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need
elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule
to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and
corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction.

Oh great a janitor advising a fighter pilot on air combat tactics

Sheesh

Keith



Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan wrote:
Keith Willshaw wrote:
"Douglas Eagleson" wrote in message
...
On May 27, 6:18 am, Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Mon, 26 May 2008 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT), WaltBJ

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need
elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule
to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and
corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction.

Oh great a janitor advising a fighter pilot on air combat tactics

Sheesh

Keith



Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Maybe he's really thinking of a fighter "sweep"?

Dean A. Markley wrote:
Dan wrote:

Maybe he can mop up all enemy resistance.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Maybe he's really thinking of a fighter "sweep"?


Hmmmm, how long before someone pans that ?



--

Cheers

Dave Kearton

On May 27, 10:53 am, Douglas Eagleson
wrote:
On May 27, 6:18 am, Ed Rasimus wrote:



On Mon, 26 May 2008 19:37:55 -0700 (PDT), WaltBJ

wrote:

SNIP a ton:
The two fastest 'rollers' Iknow of are the F104 Starfighter and the
F5 series.
The 104 clocks out at about 420 degrees per second - note the Flight
Manual limitation is 360 degrees of roll - if below 1/2 G, 180
degrees. This is to stay out of inertial coupling, which is a really
good idea..
The F5 series is credited with 450 degrees per second. I have never
flown a T38 or an F5. so can't speak to that.

I logged time in the T-38 in pilot training and flying some FCF
profiles afterward during my years as a UPT instructor, then four
years doing instructor training in Fighter Lead-In flying the AT-38B.

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"www.thunderchief.org

A spiral or corkscrew as a maneuver allows an escape. You need
elevator deflection, while entering the simple aileron roll, as a rule
to cause the high angle of attack necessary to slow the aircraft and
corkscrew breakoff to the anywhere direction.

What? Read what Walt and Ed wrote.
Do consider "inertial coupling".
If I understand correctly, doing a serious elevator input
while speed rolling will "corkscrew" you into the nearest
mud. Anyway release wing tip tanks before execution.

High angle of attack roll rate is critical to either following the
target or breaking off.

Matching the target is advised and it is as follows.

1. elevator deflect and roll positive g.
2. As 180 degree roll is passed a person needs to do a single
elevator motion. And if you get it wrong the maneuver turns into a
dive.
3. SO push on the elevator to mAKE THE FORWARD CORCKSCREW POSSIBLE.

So it is a hard thing to get the hang of and it has negative gs.

A special modification was to aerodynamics. What can be changed. A
dive as arule is always sort of expected. SO a vertical exit from the
corkscrew appear the false exit. A fake exit is possible
aerodynamically. A simple vertical followed by a return to the
corkscrew really making it impossible to follow.

ALWAYS lossing the trailing aircraft.

WOWser. What trailing aircraft do you have in mind?
vs. F104 or F5, perhaps a Mig21?
Doug, I'd like to seriously complete your scenario.
Regards
Ken

Douglas Eagleson wrote:

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

Nice to know.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Tell that to the F-86 pilots.

Dan

Douglas Eagleson wrote:
(actually, Ed Rasimus wrote
The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

Dan wrote:
Nice to know.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

Tell that to the F-86 pilots.


Please keep track of your attributions, Dan, or someone might
get the mistaken impression that the Eaglesonbot actually wrote
a lucid sentence. Three of 'em, actually.


Jeff