The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote...

Hmmm... Sounds REMOTELY like a high-G barrel roll that can be used ONLY as a
last-ditch maneuver against a close-in gun attack... OTOH, if the bullets
aren't already flying, you haven't escaped ANYTHING -- you've just ****ed away
your energy and allowed the attacker to shoot you when you stop maneuvering
(which you WILL do, else you'll soon hit the ground out of control).

Been there, done that, in front of a MiG-17 who WAS firing from about
500 feet behind me. In an F-105D, at the western end of Phantom Ridge
where it spills out into the Red River Delta, starting the maneuver at
about 800 feet AGL. Worked as advertized, but wouldn't like to have
been there more than once in a lifetime! Wasted way too many
heartbeats.

All was as you say, Sensei.

I'm honored!

Ed Rasimus wrote:
The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

The A-4 Skyhawk was likewise rated at 720 degrees/sec. The
tactical utility of this was to knock unwary flight students
in the head with the canopy, a sort of "welcome to the party, Pal!"
stunt practiced by the VT-22 instructors at NASKINGS on a
stud's first hop while I was there.

The routine was thus: after an hour and a half of being bored silly
on a Basic Instruments hop (the first several flight of the
Advanced Jet syllabus were instrument hops in the back seat)
your instructor would take the controls and tell you to pop the bag.
As you enjoyed the scenery, he'd circle out to the 5-mile initial
for a visual entry to the break. He'd come smoking in at the
speed of heat, 325 at least, get approval for a left break, say
over the intercom "Hey, what's that out there at three o'clock,"
then smack the stick over. Usually inertia held you steady while
the ol' Scooter rotated about you, and you got a faceful of
Plexiglas (this practice got kiboshed while I was there, after
a student suffered a mild concussion this way).

Forewarned by a fellow stud, I braced my shoulders against the
sides of the canopy (the only tactical utility of size 46 shoulders)
and rode it out unknocked.

720 degrees a second ***will*** tumble your internal gyros....
when dual you could usually bump your fellow adventurer's
helmet against the 'glas by going full throw unexpectedly.
The humor of this little stunt palled rather quickly.


Jeff

On Wed, 28 May 2008 06:15:45 -0600, "Jeff Crowell"
wrote:

Ed Rasimus wrote:
The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second. The stick
throw is 6" either side of center, with the first 4.5" giving you 50%
of aileron deflection and the last 1.5" giving you the full deflection
for max rate rolls. Dash-1 restriction is against continuous full
deflection rolls with a warning that it is difficult to stop full
deflection in less than two rolls.

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

The A-4 Skyhawk was likewise rated at 720 degrees/sec. The
tactical utility of this was to knock unwary flight students
in the head with the canopy, a sort of "welcome to the party, Pal!"
stunt practiced by the VT-22 instructors at NASKINGS on a
stud's first hop while I was there.

The routine was thus: after an hour and a half of being bored silly
on a Basic Instruments hop (the first several flight of the
Advanced Jet syllabus were instrument hops in the back seat)
your instructor would take the controls and tell you to pop the bag.
As you enjoyed the scenery, he'd circle out to the 5-mile initial
for a visual entry to the break. He'd come smoking in at the
speed of heat, 325 at least, get approval for a left break, say
over the intercom "Hey, what's that out there at three o'clock,"
then smack the stick over. Usually inertia held you steady while
the ol' Scooter rotated about you, and you got a faceful of
Plexiglas (this practice got kiboshed while I was there, after
a student suffered a mild concussion this way).

Forewarned by a fellow stud, I braced my shoulders against the
sides of the canopy (the only tactical utility of size 46 shoulders)
and rode it out unknocked.

720 degrees a second ***will*** tumble your internal gyros....
when dual you could usually bump your fellow adventurer's
helmet against the 'glas by going full throw unexpectedly.
The humor of this little stunt palled rather quickly.

Nothing do I know of the ratings of the Skyhawk, having gone the route
of the USN diving community, but during my 2nd class middie cruise for
NROTC, I got a ride in one down in Corpus Christi (Beesville?). Most
of the middies got a 'dedicated' flight, just a familiarization hop
with an IP.

The liason officer hadn't done his job quite right, and there were
more middies than scheduled middie flights. I got placed with an IP
that was doing formation flight training with a real student.

Student would form up, we'd fly a little bit and (I learned a few
minutes later) the IP would give a hand signal, and yank & bank.
Helmet against canopy, boom. I think it was the third time before I
saw the hand signal, and was able to be ready for the break.

After the instruction part was over, the IP sent the student home, and
we got to fool around a bit, with the IP being very kind to a goofy
middie (that might be redundant ..., the goofy middie part, that is)

After we landed, the pilot told me how to unhook my mask, and then
told me to run my hand down the Gsuit hose and disconnect it, telling
me it might be a little hard to reach.

G suit hose came off the fitting as soon as I started to move my hand
on it. It was never got hooked up ( I was put in the plane by the
liason officer, not a plane captain.) IP expressed mild admiration
that I'd not blacked out. It had been a very near thing, on some of
the turns, but I think I hung on through the entire flight. Great
fun. When I win the Jillion dollar lottery, I'm going to have to buy
an A-4 :-)

On Tue, 27 May 2008 13:18:55 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

I should think the opposite, since it wastes energy, and postpones
doing something useful.

Casady

On Wed, 28 May 2008 14:47:48 GMT, (Richard
Casady) wrote:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 13:18:55 GMT, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

The FCF profile involves rolls left and right with first half-rate and
then a full-deflection in each direction. It will make your head spin
and if you are not braced, bounce your helmet off the canopy.

It has virtually NO tactical utility.

I should think the opposite, since it wastes energy, and postpones
doing something useful.

Casady

Aileron rolls don't take much energy, and it must be acknowledged that
there is a minimum required amount of rolling agility to be effective,
but after that point increases in roll rate don't offer much.

As for defensive maneuvers, the essential basic is that all defensive
maneuvering must be done with respect to the attacking aircraft.
Failure to consider the position and potential of the attacker when
making any move will quickly lead to loss.

The truism, "lose sight, lose the fight" is basic catechism for
aspiring fighter drivers.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Palace Cobra"
www.thunderchief.org

Roll rate: 720 degrees per second - what a head-bouncer! We could get
the Zipper to roll a but faster by stomping on teh rudder to yaw it -
the A-model's manual rudder took a good hard stomp, though.
Seriously, rolls are used to set a bank angle so you can change
direction by using the pitch control and piling on G. - some older
fighters do not roll very fast at high indicated airspeed so a faster
roll rate helps you either nail or shake them.
MiG15/17 run into trouble rolling in the transonic area. Unfortunately
all later fighters AFIK do not have this problem.
As for fancy corkscrew maneuvers to shed another guy - if he knows
what he's doing he'll lag you, stay back a ways, refuse to commit, and
wait for you to **** off all your energy and then he will shoot you
down. Besides, even if you do shake him, what has his wingman been
doing all this time? Getting into position on you, that's what. The
other thing - once you turned up in 90 degrees of bank guys 20 mies
away saw you and guys 100 miles away had you on radar.
BTW we trained in and adopted 'loose deuce' back in the 60s - I
should think that is a pretty wide-spread tactic at least in the
serious air forces by now. You might have Lead trapped at six but what
is Two doing???
Walt BJ

"WaltBJ" wrote...
Roll rate: 720 degrees per second - what a head-bouncer! We could get
the Zipper to roll a but faster by stomping on teh rudder to yaw it -
the A-model's manual rudder took a good hard stomp, though.

When I was an A-4 instructor, I was amazed at the number of pilots who thought
full stick deflection in the A-4 gave you that 720 deg/sec rate (I suspect it
was more like 3/4 that). Many of them were even MORE amazed when I showed them
what happened when you stomp the rudder as well to get the REAL max rate...

"Ed Rasimus" wrote...
The two fastest 'rollers' Iknow of are the F104 Starfighter and the F5
series.
The 104 clocks out at about 420 degrees per second
The F5 series is credited with 450 degrees per second.

The T-38 roll-rate is listed at 720 degrees per second.

The A-4 is also 720 deg/sec. I can vouch for it!