Mapping Glider Locations

"I don't agree with this at all. If you are using a 2M ham transmitter
without a ham license, you are violating FCC rules. The software you
claim to have controlling the transmitter does not eliminate the need
for a "control operator" for the 2M transmitter to be licensed."

Response: See http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator

"I assume you have memorized the questions for your ham license before
you put a 2M transmitter on the air or you may get a written invitation
from the FCC to explain your actions."

Response: I did not memorize any questions for the ham exam, since there
was no question pool when I went down to the FCC office and passed the extra
class exam. I had to learn the stuff.

Colin Lamb K7FM (licensed in 1959)

COLIN LAMB wrote:



Response: See http://info.aprs.net/index.php?title=ControlOperator

Colin Lamb K7FM (licensed in 1959)



OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!

Scott
N0EDV

"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!"

Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another
post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented.
The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing.
There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded
in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control
operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets
called on the carpet.

Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their
activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part
of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity.
Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The
amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control
he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could
install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep
mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you
returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the
internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he
could become a ham so he could control things himself.

We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed
searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a
number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control
operator.

I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in
APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem
installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time.

As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am
comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public
benefit.

Colin Lamb

COLIN LAMB wrote:
"OK, I'm not trying to argue with you, but I'd wager in a court of law,
the FCC rules would take precidence over an aprs website wiki. Of
course, individual interpretation of FCC rules has always existed. I
have not used aprs, so I need to ask a question. Does an amateur radio
callsign need to be supplied to the aprs software? If so, I assume that
is the call sent out in the packets. If so, the person that holds that
callsign is responsible for the transmission. Would you be willing to
have your call in use with hundreds of aprs installations in gliders (or
anywhere else) being operated by unlicensed individuals? Not me!"

Certainly the FCC rules take precedence. And, as I explained in another
post, there can be some gray areas, depending upon how they are implemented.
The FCC knows what is going on and has inpliedly consented by doing nothing.
There must be a control operator and his or her callsign would be embedded
in each digital transmission. That would be the callsign of the control
operator. If there is any violation, it is the control operator that gets
called on the carpet.

Exactly. That is why I wondered if you had objections to the
possibility of having your call used by Joe Public so to speak.

Certain rules are inflexible for hams. First, they cannot charge for their
activities. So, any installation would have to be unconpensated on the part
of the amateur. Secondly, it could not be used in a commercial activity.
Both of these rules could be met in most sailplane installations. The
amateur would have to be familiar with the rules and decide how much control
he or she wanted. Control could be fairly simple. Your neighbor ham could
install and turn it on as you left for the airport, it could go into sleep
mode when you finished your flight and he could turn it off when you
returned home. In the meantime, your wife could watch your flight on the
internet on www.findu.com The soaring pilot might find this so useful, he
could become a ham so he could control things himself.

We have tried APRS in our search operation and I have sent out unlicensed
searchers with my call embedded in their transmitter. We actually have a
number of hams who are SAR members, so we are never far away from a control
operator.

I would not and do not intend to let hundeds of installations use my call in
APRS installations, but under the right circumstances would have no problem
installing the equipment in selected gliders at the appropraite time.

As to my ability to interpret the FCC rules, I am also a lawyer and am
comfortable dealing with "gray" areas - especially when there is public
benefit.

OK, but to me PERSONALLY, I take "gray areas" as "indeterminate and
intermediate in character" (Webster's Universal College Dictionary)
meaning that while something may not be specifically illegal, it may not
necessarily be specifically legal either. This is the area where
lawyers dwell (as noted in an old Don Henley song). It sounds to me
that gray areas tend to be used by people that are after something that
is good for them rather than good for the public in general.

I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days.

Scott
N0EDV

Colin Lamb

"I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days."

Response: And, you are implying that glider pilots never operate in a gray
area. They do. One example is in the limitations of experimental aircraft.
Some things are set in stone. Others are not. There are numerous examples
of gray areas when it comes to flight. There was a discussion sometime ago
about whether a tow plane could tow a glider operating as an ultralight.

Let me give you a simple and realistic example of where APRS could be used
and there would be no gray area. You and your friend are glider pilots.
You are a ham and your friend is not. You decide to fly cross-country
together. You bring along two self contained APRS boxes. You place one box
in his aircraft and turn it on. You place the others in your aircraft and
turn it on. You leave a receive only unit at the airport connected to a GPS
with built in terrain mapping. Your friend tells his spouse that she can
follow your flight on a Google map on the internet at www.findu.com . Then,
you fly. During flight, you will be able to see your soaring companion on
your GPS screen. It makes the cross-country more enjoyable and safer. The
guys back at the airport can watch your progress with envy. At end of the
day, you return back to your home airport and land. You go over to him,
congratulate him on the successful flight, then shut the APRS beacon off and
remove from aircraft to take home with you. Then, you go have a beer.

Your friend's wife then notes that you returned to the airport at 4:45 pm
but did not get home until 7:30 pm, says the dinner is cold andwonders where
he spent the intervening 2 hours and 45 minutes.

Your friend says he is never going to use APRS again, or at least not let
his wife know about it.

Colin Lamb

Colin,

I'm a glider pilot and a ham. I read the opinions on your wiki and on
this thread. I'd be comfortable going out to the field and setting up
a tracker for a particular flight and taking the system home at the
end of the day, but there's no way I would set one up as a permanent
installation in a glider. The point of being control operator is that
you are in control of the transmissions. A permanent installation in
someone else's airplane is in no way remaining in control of the
radio, even if you could theoretically ask them politely to let you
disengage or modify the system.

The right way to do this (and it is a good idea that I hope catches
on) is to find another piece of spectrum intended for this use and to
get a proper license to use it. Operating in "grey areas" is not
where a responsible ham or pilot should be.

Respectfully,

Joel Odom
W4LL
http://joelodom.blogspot.com/


On Jun 1, 4:00 pm, "COLIN LAMB" wrote:
"I'm not saying you can't do this, but my conscience says it's not the
intent of the FCC rules to let any Tom, Dick or Harry use amateur
frequncies on a continuing basis without obtaining a proper license. We
could debate this for decades, but would end up in the same spot in the
end (unless the FCC ever decides this is an abuse of license privileges
and specifically spells it out as legal or illegal). The wiki source
you provided suggests asking the ARRL for guidance and NOT to ask the
FCC. This is their way of saying "Let a sleeping dog lie." And this
implies to me that they are suggesting operating on the fringe of the
law. I think allowing non-hams to operate in the ham bands is not a
good thing for the amateur service, but that's just my opinion. After
all, it's not hard to get a license these days."

Response: And, you are implying that glider pilots never operate in a gray
area. They do. One example is in the limitations of experimental aircraft.
Some things are set in stone. Others are not. There are numerous examples
of gray areas when it comes to flight. There was a discussion sometime ago
about whether a tow plane could tow a glider operating as an ultralight.

Let me give you a simple and realistic example of where APRS could be used
and there would be no gray area. You and your friend are glider pilots.
You are a ham and your friend is not. You decide to fly cross-country
together. You bring along two self contained APRS boxes. You place one box
in his aircraft and turn it on. You place the others in your aircraft and
turn it on. You leave a receive only unit at the airport connected to a GPS
with built in terrain mapping. Your friend tells his spouse that she can
follow your flight on a Google map on the internet atwww.findu.com. Then,
you fly. During flight, you will be able to see your soaring companion on
your GPS screen. It makes the cross-country more enjoyable and safer. The
guys back at the airport can watch your progress with envy. At end of the
day, you return back to your home airport and land. You go over to him,
congratulate him on the successful flight, then shut the APRS beacon off and
remove from aircraft to take home with you. Then, you go have a beer.

Your friend's wife then notes that you returned to the airport at 4:45 pm
but did not get home until 7:30 pm, says the dinner is cold andwonders where
he spent the intervening 2 hours and 45 minutes.

Your friend says he is never going to use APRS again, or at least not let
his wife know about it.

Colin Lamb

Hello Joel:

The original post was not for the purpose of encouraging a non-ham to have a
permanent APRS installation. The point of the original post was to
familiarize those not acquainted with APRS about the possibilities for use
with soaring. It has some real benefit over SPOT in that fellow pilots can
follow each other, even though they do not have internet capability. And,
there is no service fee. I know a number of soaring pilots who are hams.

The post also included the fact that the benefits can be utilized by
non-hams. There is no gray area about that. That was somewhat like a
footnote, since it was not the main purpose of the post. I posted a website
which contained further information, for those that were interested.
Suddenly, The thread turned to "it cannot be done", so that has consumed
much of the content. Note that I did not advocate that a ham should install
hundreds of APRS systems and then walk away. I am going to build a couple
and try them out in my glider and a friend's glider. I am going to turn
them on and turn them off. I did not advocate a permanent installation, and
you yourself admitted you would be comfortable letting a non-ham fly with
one.

In days of old, we went down to the FCC office and had to pass a code test,
with some government official breathing over our shoulder. I did that. No
more. Code has gone away and the written test is no longer taken in an
office. You can memorize the question pool in a day and take the exam - if
there is a benefit from becoming an amateur. APRS might be that benefit.

In essence, the thread started selling the benefits of amateur radio,
demonstrating that amateur radio can provide safety and convenience to the
glider pilot. It was not to promote an outlaw operation. The FCC knows
exactly what is going on with APRS and has not handed down one adverse
ruling, letter or public statement even suggesting anything that I advanced
in my statements is in a gray area. I expect the reason is that they wish
to advance technology and promote technical growth. Remember that the
original application of APRS was a unit that was placed on a non-ham. I
recall it was a blind runner in a marathon. As a result of this experiment,
APRS is now used by many agencies and services.

Colin Lamb