What if we ignored N. Africa and the MTO?

Apparently Hitler originally wanted to defend only a small part of
Africa, that is what he should have done.

What you say above is in contradiction to this. He should have left
Africa completely. But hey, that's not what an alliance is about. If
you want to keep it, that is.

The Axis nations seemed not to grasp the notion of alliances. Germany
had a perfectly good ally on its northern flank in the war against
Russia, but instead of supplying materiel to Finland, it *sold* the
stuff. Not only did it sell the Bf-109s--it even charged the Finns for
the aircraft it captured in France and sent north to the FAF, which
was already equipped with numerous foreign aircraft as a result of the
Winter War of 1939-1940.

As for Japan--better not go into how the Japanese treated the
"liberated" nations of Southeast Asia.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver writes:

Apparently Hitler originally wanted to defend only a small part of
Africa, that is what he should have done.

What you say above is in contradiction to this. He should have left
Africa completely. But hey, that's not what an alliance is about. If
you want to keep it, that is.

The Axis nations seemed not to grasp the notion of alliances. Germany
had a perfectly good ally on its northern flank in the war against
Russia, but instead of supplying materiel to Finland, it *sold* the
stuff. Not only did it sell the Bf-109s--it even charged the Finns for
the aircraft it captured in France and sent north to the FAF, which
was already equipped with numerous foreign aircraft as a result of the
Winter War of 1939-1940.

Ooh, was that the revenge of the Jews? If they can't do anything about
the holocaust quickly, maybe giving advice like that to the Germans
was a form of revenge :-)

As for Japan--better not go into how the Japanese treated the
"liberated" nations of Southeast Asia.

Seeing as they saw those as a source of raw materials and market for
goods, one can take a fair guess! But do you know some details (sorry,
it would take me days, if not weeks, to find something and read
it). In the case of military stuff, what could they give or even sell,
having too few themselves? I am thinking of Manchukuo and Thailand,
among others perhaps, which were equipped with Japanese aircraft. Any
facts on how these ended up there?

--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

Cub Driver writes:

Apparently Hitler originally wanted to defend only a small part of
Africa, that is what he should have done.

What you say above is in contradiction to this. He should have left
Africa completely. But hey, that's not what an alliance is about. If
you want to keep it, that is.

The Axis nations seemed not to grasp the notion of alliances. Germany
had a perfectly good ally on its northern flank in the war against
Russia, but instead of supplying materiel to Finland, it *sold* the
stuff. Not only did it sell the Bf-109s--it even charged the Finns for
the aircraft it captured in France and sent north to the FAF, which
was already equipped with numerous foreign aircraft as a result of the
Winter War of 1939-1940.

Ooh, was that the revenge of the Jews? If they can't do anything about
the holocaust quickly, maybe giving advice like that to the Germans
was a form of revenge :-)

As for Japan--better not go into how the Japanese treated the
"liberated" nations of Southeast Asia.

Seeing as they saw those as a source of raw materials and market for
goods, one can take a fair guess! But do you know some details (sorry,
it would take me days, if not weeks, to find something and read
it). In the case of military stuff, what could they give or even sell,
having too few themselves? I am thinking of Manchukuo and Thailand,
among others perhaps, which were equipped with Japanese aircraft. Any
facts on how these ended up there?

--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

Is you're sister called Jude?
wally

From: Gernot Hassenpflug

I am thinking of Manchukuo and Thailand,
among others perhaps, which were equipped with Japanese aircraft. Any
facts on how these ended up there?

I once knew a retired Japanese construction engineer who said that during the
"Fifteen Year War" he worked as an employee of a civilian contractor on a
number of projects in Chosen and Manshu as he called Korea and Manchuria.
Among these was a factory in Manchuria to build Nakajimas. So that's how
Manchuria might have got Japanese aircraft. He also worked on a similar project
in Java but got some unpleasant tropical disease and went home before it was
completed.
Incidentally, he said he was not drafted until well into 1945 and was trained
to resist a US assault on the homeland. He was damned glad when the war ended
without him ever to fire a shot--or have a shot fired at him. I remember once
we clinked glasses to the toast, "Thank God for the atomic bomb!"
Allowed him to get back into construction and make several mints in the postwar
Japanese building boom, most of which in his retirement he blew playing golf at
various exclusive country clubs or in the gambling dens and houses of ill
repute of Reno and environs. He was good buddies with a friend of mine who
retired to Reno after a similar career in construction on the US side. During
the Big One he'd been in a wire company in the Ardennes and in the occupation
of Germany. Had a jolly German wife who this Japanese guy seemed utterly
fascinated with. She was about twice his size....well, I'm rambling...
Military aviation content, at one point these two bought a PBY they intended to
fix up as a flying RV and tour the south seas islands in. Don't know how that
turned out.


Chris Mark

I am thinking of Manchukuo and Thailand,
among others perhaps, which were equipped with Japanese aircraft. Any
facts on how these ended up there?

I don't know, but I suspect they were sold. Of course they weren't
front-line aircraft. The army I know provided Ki-27 "Nate" fighters to
both those satellites. (Type 97 Army Fighter

More significantly, Japan turned over a sentai (group) of Nakajima
Ki-43-IIB Hayabusa fighters to the Royal Thai air force in the spring
of 1944. Richard Bueschel says that one squadron served in China under
Japanese command.

Several countires including France used captured Hayabusas postwar.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

Cub Driver writes:

Apparently Hitler originally wanted to defend only a small part of
Africa, that is what he should have done.

What you say above is in contradiction to this. He should have left
Africa completely. But hey, that's not what an alliance is about. If
you want to keep it, that is.

The Axis nations seemed not to grasp the notion of alliances. Germany
had a perfectly good ally on its northern flank in the war against
Russia, but instead of supplying materiel to Finland, it *sold* the
stuff. Not only did it sell the Bf-109s--it even charged the Finns for
the aircraft it captured in France and sent north to the FAF, which
was already equipped with numerous foreign aircraft as a result of the
Winter War of 1939-1940.

Ooh, was that the revenge of the Jews? If they can't do anything about
the holocaust quickly, maybe giving advice like that to the Germans
was a form of revenge :-)

As for Japan--better not go into how the Japanese treated the
"liberated" nations of Southeast Asia.

Seeing as they saw those as a source of raw materials and market for
goods, one can take a fair guess! But do you know some details (sorry,
it would take me days, if not weeks, to find something and read
it). In the case of military stuff, what could they give or even sell,
having too few themselves? I am thinking of Manchukuo and Thailand,
among others perhaps, which were equipped with Japanese aircraft. Any
facts on how these ended up there?

--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

The Thai ones were probably replacements for the aircraft
the Thais lost in their war with Vichy France. The Thais
were more or less under Japanese occupation, so probably had
no choice about where to buy replacement aircraft. Thailand
actually declared war against the US, but the US more or
less ignored that fact and never treated the Thais as
enemies.

Joe


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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The Thai ones were probably replacements for the aircraft
the Thais lost in their war with Vichy France. The Thais

The Royal Thai air force had some Curtiss 75 (P-36 type) Hawks,
perhaps with fixed landing gear. The Japanese shot down a few of these
when they moved into Thailand on Dec 7/8, and the survivors must have
been pretty weary by 1943.

were more or less under Japanese occupation, so probably had
no choice about where to buy replacement aircraft. Thailand
actually declared war against the US, but the US more or
less ignored that fact and never treated the Thais as
enemies.

The Thai ambassador in Washington simply declared himself the
representative of the Free Tais (well, whatever) and stayed in his
embassy throughout the war.

You have to admire a nation that resilient. Thailand is I believe the
only (or anyone one of the few) Asian nations that was never ruled by
a foreign power. Even the Japanese followed the niceties of being an
ally, not an occupier. By the summer of 1945, British agents were
operating more or less openly in Bangkok.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:24:04 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

Cub Driver writes:

Apparently Hitler originally wanted to defend only a small part of
Africa, that is what he should have done.

What you say above is in contradiction to this. He should have left
Africa completely. But hey, that's not what an alliance is about. If
you want to keep it, that is.

The Axis nations seemed not to grasp the notion of alliances. Germany
had a perfectly good ally on its northern flank in the war against
Russia, but instead of supplying materiel to Finland, it *sold* the
stuff. Not only did it sell the Bf-109s--it even charged the Finns for
the aircraft it captured in France and sent north to the FAF, which
was already equipped with numerous foreign aircraft as a result of the
Winter War of 1939-1940.

Ooh, was that the revenge of the Jews? If they can't do anything about
the holocaust quickly, maybe giving advice like that to the Germans
was a form of revenge :-)

As for Japan--better not go into how the Japanese treated the
"liberated" nations of Southeast Asia.

Seeing as they saw those as a source of raw materials and market for
goods, one can take a fair guess! But do you know some details (sorry,
it would take me days, if not weeks, to find something and read
it). In the case of military stuff, what could they give or even sell,
having too few themselves? I am thinking of Manchukuo and Thailand,
among others perhaps, which were equipped with Japanese aircraft. Any
facts on how these ended up there?

No, they saw them as sub-human trash, and treated them as such. Remember the
"rape of Nanking"? The "Bataan Death March"? Manila? etc. The Japanese
behaved like depraved animals.

Al Minyard

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:33:25 -0500, Cub Driver wrote:

What you say above is in contradiction to this. He should have left
Africa completely. But hey, that's not what an alliance is about. If
you want to keep it, that is.

The Axis nations seemed not to grasp the notion of alliances. Germany
had a perfectly good ally on its northern flank in the war against
Russia, but instead of supplying materiel to Finland, it *sold* the
stuff. Not only did it sell the Bf-109s--it even charged the Finns for
the aircraft it captured in France and sent north to the FAF, which
was already equipped with numerous foreign aircraft as a result of the
Winter War of 1939-1940.

Not only that, they wouldn't let Hungary -- which had a large arms
industry -- copy German weapons.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).