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#1
December 3rd 03, 02:14 PM
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"Bernardz" wrote in message news:MPG.1a38909ef387a918989772@news... In article , says... For the British eighth army that's certainly true but the Torch convoys sailed from the US and Britain. The Sicily invasion force staged out of the North African ports Torch were dependent on British forces for the majority contribution. I think you will find that almost all supplies went though the Suez until very late in the war. The Torch convoys entered the med via Gibraltar http://www.combinedops.com/Torch.htm You are incorrect with regard to the routing of supplies for the Torch landing and suubsequent operations. its way through an area where the axis have air bases on both sides of the Med Point taken. They probably could have done it but it is risky. As it was North Africa costs the Axis dearly. IIRC about 25% of axis strength. Hardly a compelling argument for not fighting them there then. It is as long as Russia held! From the US and Britain point of view, they needed the war as they showed the world that while Russia was losing so much that they were fighting too. It also enabled them to learn as others have pointed out. They also needed to hold the Middle East oil fields and Suez canal. Allowing the Germans to seize those would have altered the whole strategic balance. A third Reich with unlimited oil supplies doesn't bear thinking about. What Middle Eastern oil fields in the early 1940s in the Middle East? The ones in Iraq and Iran that were suppling Britain with a lot of its oil, the first Iranian reserves came on line before WW1 and the Iraqi ones during the 20's Probably Egypt is Hitler best bet but its not much. The Gulf is a long way away from Egypt. If Hitler could not get the adequate supplies to Egypt, I cannot see him making the Gulf. The fields in the ME supplied the British forces in Egypt rather effectively But even if he did make it, the Gulf oil fields there were just starting up. IIRC Gulf oil production was very small about 40,000 barrels per day. I doubt they would get that as the British had established plans in place to make sure that they were destroyed if the Germans came. It would be like what the Japanese in the Pacific or the Germans in Russia found when the captured the oil fields, they had been destroyed already. You are fixated on the Gulf. The Northern Iraqi fields went into production in the 1920's and their was a pipeline to Haifa on the med. The British force that suppressed the German fomented Iraqi coup during WW2 travelled from Palestine to Iraq along the pipeline road. No way the mid-east could have been developed quickly enough to meet the oil needs even the most desperate powers of the time. It was already developed, US companies , BP, Shell, and Compagnie Française Pëtrole began operations in Iraq in 1928 Worst case for the Allies, Hitler has a whole lot more borders to defend. And a lot of oil I would argue from Axis view the whole war in North Africa was an expensive waste. A best all he could do was win in the Suez for awhile. Which the Allies could and did get on without it. This was true of much of the Axis war strategy. The capture of Norway and Denmark were pyhricc victories as they tied down 20 or more German divisions to hold down nations that had been effectively giving them everything they wanted anyway. As a result large numbers of German troops and air force were uselessly stuck at the end of a long supply line carrying large numbers of useless Italians soldiers. Which was bad for them and good for the allies. The effect in some parts of the German military was quite dramatic for example large numbers of German transport planes were diverted and lost over North Africa at a time when they were badly needed in Russia. Apparently Hitler originally wanted to defend only a small part of Africa, that is what he should have done. This was an impractical proposition however. Sooner or later the allies were going to assemble a large force and push them out. Agreed no matter what strategy Hitler used. After Hitler declared war on the US and found himself at war with Britain, Russia and the US, it was just a matter of time. After Germany invaded Russia it was just a matter of time before the red army appeared on the horizon. Keith 
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#3
December 4th 03, 12:22 PM
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"Bernardz" wrote in message news:MPG.1a39bf46de8212ec98977d@news... In article , says... "Bernardz" wrote in message news:MPG.1a38909ef387a918989772@news... In article , says... For the British eighth army that's certainly true but the Torch convoys sailed from the US and Britain. The Sicily invasion force staged out of the North African ports Torch were dependent on British forces for the majority contribution. I think you will find that almost all supplies went though the Suez until very late in the war. The Torch convoys entered the med via Gibraltar http://www.combinedops.com/Torch.htm Yes. The exception that proves the rule. It was too dangerous for a regular supply convoy. Only very important convoys went though that route. I repeat almost all supplies went to the British Eight army and that was around the cape though the Suez. Cost a lot in shipping to go that long route. That was only true up until the time of the capture of North Africa By the time Scicily was invaded the allies had already taken the Italian Island of Pantalleria and between the airfields they had there and those on Malta were able to re-open the Med to traffic. It indeed cost a lot in shipping to go around the Cape which is why they didnt do it when it could be avoided. Troopships and supplies from East Africa and Australia would come through the Suez Canal but the rest came via the straits of Gibraltar. The invasion of Scicily and Italy involved substantial US and Canadian forces who most certainly did not travel round the cape and neither did their supplies. You are incorrect with regard to the routing of supplies for the Torch landing and suubsequent operations. I never said anything about subsequent. Of course you did, you said Torch were dependent on British forces for the majority contribution. I think you will find that almost all supplies went though the Suez until very late in the war. Its a matter of record that the Torch force and its supplies came in via Gibraltar Perhaps a better plan might have been rather then fight a war in North Africa do a direct invasion of Sicily from Egypt. snip What Middle Eastern oil fields in the early 1940s in the Middle East? The ones in Iraq and Iran that were suppling Britain with a lot of its oil, the first Iranian reserves came on line before WW1 and the Iraqi ones during the 20's Never denied that either. You asked a question, I answered it. And a lot of oil I hope this table comes out they rarely do on the usenet. It comes out of a discussion I had awhile ago on a similar subject Here are some crude oil production figures for 1945 Source: American Petroleum Institute, Petroleum Facts & Figures 1959 snip The significant oil fields in the region is in Iran which is a lot further still. No there were large fields in Norther Iraq around Mosul which were routed via pipeline to Haifa [Notes Rumania is very low because of the destruction in the war] If Hitler could not make it to the canal, he ain't going to make it to Iran. If he did make it to Iran, the British would make sure that there would be that there would be so much damage to the oil fields and the pipelines that it will be a long time before the fields would be of any use. All of which is only possible if the British defend the Middle East take a look atv the title of this thread Hitler took an oil field in Russia too never got a drop out of it. The Japanese took some in the Pacific and got very little out of it too. The only fields the German took in Russia were some very small fields, the whole Satalingrad campaign was part of an attempt to seize the Caucasian oilfields snip After Germany invaded Russia it was just a matter of time before the red army appeared on the horizon. I really am unsure about this. It *might* be possible for Hitler to win the East. Say an early German assault on Leningrad and then once it falls, a very risky direct assault on Moscow and pray that the Russian army on his flanks in Kiev don't do him much damage. Germany captured Kiev in 1941 BEFORE they attempted the assault on Moscow. By that time they already had Leningrad besieged. The only Soviet army in good enough shape in 1941 to launch an offensive was the Siberian force and they had to be held back until the Soviets were sure which way the Japanese were going to jump. It was that force which shocked the Germans in the Soviet winter offensive of 1941/42 In any case whether Britain and Russia together could have defeated Germany without the US is debatable. But it is hard to see how the US could have stayed out. In any case with all three Britain, US and Russia, it was only a matter of time before Hitler was finished. Once the Germans failed to knock the USSR out of the war in 1941 it was just a matter of time until the vast manpower and industrial resources of the Russians overwhelmed them. The Wehrmach was in retreat on the eastern front BEFORE D-Day Keith
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#4
December 4th 03, 03:31 PM
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Bernardz writes:
After Germany invaded Russia it was just a matter of time before the red army appeared on the horizon. I really am unsure about this. It *might* be possible for Hitler to win the East. Say an early German assault on Leningrad and then once it falls, a very risky direct assault on Moscow and pray that the Russian army on his flanks in Kiev don't do him much damage. You're kidding, right? Look at Russian history! Even Tsushima, as terrible a defeat as can happen to a Navy, with demoralized crews, they fought many ships until the water closed over them, or no more ammunition remained or no guns could fire. Pray.... yeah right! :-) -- G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan
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