Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:58:48 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

SNIP


Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
how it usually works in the rest of the world.

The real problem here is finding enough qualified Tibetans. Those
qualifed will have no problem finding employment. You still need at
least a high school equivalency to work in a white collar job. To a
Han Tibet is a hardship post. But if that's where the jobs are
they'll come, earn what they came to earn and then go east after a few
years. The jobs will always be available for qualified Tibetans.

As for manual jobs the Han immigrants are paid as poorly as Tibetans.
And there is a problem of language to manage a Tibetan work crew.


Hmmm, the Tibetan language being a problem in Tibet is a problem?
I fear that their culture is surely doomed.

Han and non Tibetans rarely if ever learn Tibetan. There is no money
in it. Outside the Buddhist tracts there is no great Tibetan
literature. Buddhism you can learn from other mainstream languages.
Tibetan culture has meaning only to Tibetans and to "good only for two
days" tourists. It is brutal and it is Darwinian. Tibetan culture as
a way of life is doomed. It will survive only as tourist curiosities
and in the occassional lost valley too remote for modern
infrastructure to reach.


In
any case these are dead end jobs. The only solution is for Tibetans
to acquire employable skills.



True.





But the Tibetans must also have
the attitude, aptitude and the ability to take advantage of these
opportunities.

I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.

To quit with barely a grade 6 education with no
(Chinese majority or foreign) language skills dooms one to making a
living off equally disadvantaged fellow Tibetans. (Being a monk
inures one to life's hardships but is quite useless for making a
living.)

I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
that the local population had a better life style before the
Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
decide what happens in Tibet.

Beijing of course. How many times do you have to be reminded of that.
If you have a viable alternative do let the world know. You will have
Tibetans and Beijing whispering your name in gratitude.


Do read the May National Geographic special issue on China. See the
vast deserts. See the poverty and backwardness in marginal farmlands.
Due to global climate change Tibet is drying up and farming and
herding can no longer sustain a livelihood. The world is changing and
their old style of life has disappeared forever whether they like it
or not. The question then is can they adapt to the new life that has
been forced upon them by nature.



I've never argued that their life isn't changing I've been asking
who gets to and who should decide how it changes. I think we agree
that it isn't the people of Tibet.

Once more with feeling. Beijing of course. How many times do you
have to be reminded of that. If you have a viable alternative do let
the world know. You will have Tibetans and Beijing whispering your
name in gratitude.

Now had Beijing left Tibet alone to muddle along with Tibetans left to
their own devices there would be a real outcry that Beijing was
practising genocide. Life would be very harsh for Tibetans and life
expectancy in the low 40s with live births in appalling low numbers.
So Beijing muddles along too but on a higher economic plane until some
solution presents itself. At least the Tibetans aren't dying like
flies.


Turn to page 74-75 a double spread showing Tibetan youths and
government housing in the background built to house Tibetans displaced
by climate change. The caption suggests that the Tibetan youths are
visitors. Those Tibetans resettled in these new towns receive
government subsidies enough to get by on. But they are bored out of
their frigging minds because of lack of suitable employment. They are
pastoral people not urbanites. In this sheltered environment Tibetan
culture cannot thrive because it is out of context with their
traditional way of life. By the same context no amount of government
funding or support will keep alive Tibetan culture as a way of life.
Change is not an option. It is a relentless certainty.

Do take a look at the Tibetan youths again and compare them with the
Han in other pages. They look differerent enough that without my
dwelling on it you can see they will have a problem getting hired.


Is racism a problem in China?

NO. In the whole of China's long history no minority people had ever
posed a threat to a Han's livelihood. The minorities were always
poorer off for any Han to develop feelings of jealousy or insecurity.
Their numbers (the minority groups) were never large enough to impact
on any aspect of Chinese society. Fear and loathing for a non Han
therefore never arose. But tribal prejudice is alive and well between
Han provincials and dialect groups. But that's another story all
together.


I
have deleted the rest of my rant as I have no alternative or
optimistic solutions for Tibetan problems in a fast changing world.
No amount of good intentions or pablum slogans on your part nor on the
Chinese side will solve anything.

Don't get me wrong they are living in a time of change that will
most likely turn their world upside down. I'm merely pointing
out that there isn't only one way for this change to take place. What
I see happening is a government that isn't concerned on what is best
for Tibet. But I don't see a practical solution to the situation. So
let's agree that the Tibetans are going to get screwed.


Joe

The New Town Settlements encapsulate all that is unhappy and
intractable with the Tibetan problem. Its pretty obvious that
building larger houses and giving them a bigger stipend will solve
nothing. It maye make the situation worse by removing all incentive
for them to make it in the modern world. Tibetans are not going to
get screwed. They are already screwed. They are screwed by pinning
their hopes on independence (a non starter), on religion and on the
return of the lama system. Their salvation is to develop an
economically viable way of life in modern society not regress to blind
hopes. A full belly is the means to fulfill many hopes.

This is also the reason why the Dalai Lama does not want to return to
Tibet. There's nothing he can do for he has neither the funds nor the
organization nor the solutions economic and cultural to meet their
needs. While he stays outside and does his thing he gets treated like
a head of state and receives very generous funding from well meaning
donors and from governments wishing to destabilize China. Thus every
time China agrees to talks, whenever these talks seem like moving
forward, the DL will say something undiplomatic to sabotage them.
That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.

In , PaPaPeng
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:58:48 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:
Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
how it usually works in the rest of the world.

The real problem here is finding enough qualified Tibetans. Those
qualifed will have no problem finding employment. You still need at
least a high school equivalency to work in a white collar job. To a
Han Tibet is a hardship post. But if that's where the jobs are
they'll come, earn what they came to earn and then go east after a few
years. The jobs will always be available for qualified Tibetans.

As for manual jobs the Han immigrants are paid as poorly as Tibetans.
And there is a problem of language to manage a Tibetan work crew.


Hmmm, the Tibetan language being a problem in Tibet is a problem?
I fear that their culture is surely doomed.

Han and non Tibetans rarely if ever learn Tibetan.

Their loss. Learning another language is never a waste.

There is no money in it.

One does not learn another language merely because there is "money in it".

Outside the Buddhist tracts there is no great Tibetan
literature. Buddhism you can learn from other mainstream languages.

Buddhism isn't rooted in Tibet so your point is meaningless.

Tibetan culture has meaning only to Tibetans and to "good only for two
days" tourists. It is brutal and it is Darwinian.

You are entitled to your opinion. I seriously doubt many, if any, Tibetans
will agree with your assessment.

Tibetan culture as a way of life is doomed. It will survive only as tourist curiosities
and in the occassional lost valley too remote for modern
infrastructure to reach.

And the Chinese government is doing everything it can to fulfill your dream.

I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
that the local population had a better life style before the
Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
decide what happens in Tibet.

Beijing of course. How many times do you have to be reminded of that.
If you have a viable alternative do let the world know. You will have
Tibetans and Beijing whispering your name in gratitude.

How about leaving and letting the Tibetans do it.

Now had Beijing left Tibet alone to muddle along with Tibetans left to
their own devices there would be a real outcry that Beijing was
practising genocide.

You have a crystal ball? Tarot cards? Informative tea leaves? Or is it just
a need to justify an unwarranted takeover of a completely peaceful country
that posed absolutely no threat to anyone?

Life would be very harsh for Tibetans and life
expectancy in the low 40s with live births in appalling low numbers.

Now THAT's the PRC party line we've all come to know. You serve it up quite
well.

So Beijing muddles along too but on a higher economic plane until some
solution presents itself. At least the Tibetans aren't dying like
flies.

Flies are free.

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:58:48 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

SNIP


Well there's the problem. The large immigration of Chinese to Tibet
could be considered a threat by the local Tibetan population. They
might argue that the first pick goes to the Chinese or those Tibetans
loyal to the Chinese rather than the general population. At least that's
how it usually works in the rest of the world.

The real problem here is finding enough qualified Tibetans. Those
qualifed will have no problem finding employment. You still need at
least a high school equivalency to work in a white collar job. To a
Han Tibet is a hardship post. But if that's where the jobs are
they'll come, earn what they came to earn and then go east after a few
years. The jobs will always be available for qualified Tibetans.

As for manual jobs the Han immigrants are paid as poorly as Tibetans.
And there is a problem of language to manage a Tibetan work crew.


Hmmm, the Tibetan language being a problem in Tibet is a problem?
I fear that their culture is surely doomed.

Han and non Tibetans rarely if ever learn Tibetan. There is no money
in it. Outside the Buddhist tracts there is no great Tibetan
literature. Buddhism you can learn from other mainstream languages.
Tibetan culture has meaning only to Tibetans and to "good only for two
days" tourists. It is brutal and it is Darwinian. Tibetan culture as
a way of life is doomed. It will survive only as tourist curiosities
and in the occassional lost valley too remote for modern
infrastructure to reach.


In
any case these are dead end jobs. The only solution is for Tibetans
to acquire employable skills.



True.





But the Tibetans must also have
the attitude, aptitude and the ability to take advantage of these
opportunities.

I know this is where the "whether they want it or not" comes in.

To quit with barely a grade 6 education with no
(Chinese majority or foreign) language skills dooms one to making a
living off equally disadvantaged fellow Tibetans. (Being a monk
inures one to life's hardships but is quite useless for making a
living.)

I agree but when does it become someone else¹s choice (non-Tibetan)
that they change the way they live their life? I'm not saying
that the local population had a better life style before the
Chinese decided to improve things. I'm just wondering who gets to
decide what happens in Tibet.

Beijing of course. How many times do you have to be reminded of that.
If you have a viable alternative do let the world know. You will have
Tibetans and Beijing whispering your name in gratitude.


Depends on how you define ³viable alternative². With a government in
China as paranoid as it is about it¹s control of power I don¹t see a
viable alternative so the Tibetans are fated to be screwed by the
Chinese.




Do read the May National Geographic special issue on China. See the
vast deserts. See the poverty and backwardness in marginal farmlands.
Due to global climate change Tibet is drying up and farming and
herding can no longer sustain a livelihood. The world is changing and
their old style of life has disappeared forever whether they like it
or not. The question then is can they adapt to the new life that has
been forced upon them by nature.



I've never argued that their life isn't changing I've been asking
who gets to and who should decide how it changes. I think we agree
that it isn't the people of Tibet.

Once more with feeling. Beijing of course. How many times do you
have to be reminded of that. If you have a viable alternative do let
the world know. You will have Tibetans and Beijing whispering your
name in gratitude.


Once more but without as much feeling. Depends on how you define ³viable
alternative². With a government in China as paranoid as it is about
it¹s control of power I don¹t see a viable alternative so the
Tibetans are going to be screwed by the Chinese.



Now had Beijing left Tibet alone to muddle along with Tibetans left to
their own devices there would be a real outcry that Beijing was
practising genocide. Life would be very harsh for Tibetans and life
expectancy in the low 40s with live births in appalling low numbers.


So we are back to the "white man's burden" excuse again. Look
we both know that it doesn't matter what the life style of Tibet
is. This is all about power so why keep bringing up how good
this is for Tibet when is has nothing to do with helping Tibet.
Well I guess you could say that the Chinese are 'helping' themselves
to the resources of Tibet.


So Beijing muddles along too but on a higher economic plane until some
solution presents itself. At least the Tibetans aren't dying like
flies.



We don¹t know what would happen in Tibet if the Chinese left them alone.
The world is changing and they possibly on their own would change with
it. Slower but change none the less.





Turn to page 74-75 a double spread showing Tibetan youths and
government housing in the background built to house Tibetans displaced
by climate change. The caption suggests that the Tibetan youths are
visitors. Those Tibetans resettled in these new towns receive
government subsidies enough to get by on. But they are bored out of
their frigging minds because of lack of suitable employment. They are
pastoral people not urbanites. In this sheltered environment Tibetan
culture cannot thrive because it is out of context with their
traditional way of life. By the same context no amount of government
funding or support will keep alive Tibetan culture as a way of life.
Change is not an option. It is a relentless certainty.

Do take a look at the Tibetan youths again and compare them with the
Han in other pages. They look differerent enough that without my
dwelling on it you can see they will have a problem getting hired.


Is racism a problem in China?

NO. In the whole of China's long history no minority people had ever
posed a threat to a Han's livelihood. The minorities were always
poorer off for any Han to develop feelings of jealousy or insecurity.
Their numbers (the minority groups) were never large enough to impact
on any aspect of Chinese society. Fear and loathing for a non Han
therefore never arose. But tribal prejudice is alive and well between
Han provincials and dialect groups. But that's another story all
together.



Thanks for the info.



I
have deleted the rest of my rant as I have no alternative or
optimistic solutions for Tibetan problems in a fast changing world.
No amount of good intentions or pablum slogans on your part nor on the
Chinese side will solve anything.

Don't get me wrong they are living in a time of change that will
most likely turn their world upside down. I'm merely pointing
out that there isn't only one way for this change to take place. What
I see happening is a government that isn't concerned on what is best
for Tibet. But I don't see a practical solution to the situation. So
let's agree that the Tibetans are going to get screwed.


Joe

The New Town Settlements encapsulate all that is unhappy and
intractable with the Tibetan problem. Its pretty obvious that
building larger houses and giving them a bigger stipend will solve
nothing. It maye make the situation worse by removing all incentive
for them to make it in the modern world. Tibetans are not going to
get screwed. They are already screwed. They are screwed by pinning
their hopes on independence


The nerve of them having the gall to want independence.


(a non starter), on religion


Well I have to admit that I'm not into the religion thing.


and on the
return of the lama system. Their salvation is to develop an
economically viable way of life in modern society not regress to blind
hopes.

Oh I agree.

A full belly is the means to fulfill many hopes.

But not all hopes.


This is also the reason why the Dalai Lama does not want to return to
Tibet.


Okay you're starting to lose me here.


There's nothing he can do for he has neither the funds nor the
organization nor the solutions economic and cultural to meet their
needs.

Why not let him try?


While he stays outside and does his thing he gets treated like
a head of state and receives very generous funding from well meaning
donors and from governments wishing to destabilize China.


Only countries that wish to destabilize China? Sounds a bit
paranoid to me.


Thus every
time China agrees to talks, whenever these talks seem like moving
forward, the DL will say something undiplomatic to sabotage them.


I'm not sure what they consider "undiplomatic". He has stated that
He doesn't want independence from China but more local autonomy.
I know, I know that¹s wishful thinking on his part. Besides he has
a secret agenda bankrolled by countries that want to destabilize
China.



That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.


Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?

Joe

"JJS" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,

wrote:

-stuff snipped-

That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.


Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?

Joe

I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people
do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the
brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated
that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
something.

As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I
did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai
Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and sang
songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out.
Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I
know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone
will be helped.

Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting.
I don't care, one way or the other.

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:31 -0700, "Billzz"
wrote:


"JJS" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,

wrote:

-stuff snipped-

That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.


Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?

Joe

I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people
do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the
brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated
that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
something.

As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I
did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai
Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and sang
songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out.
Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I
know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone
will be helped.

Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting.
I don't care, one way or the other.


I guess by now you would have noticed that no one really cares about
the Tibetans unless they can be used to bash China.

Here's a report that isn't so flattering either.

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.

This centuries-old practice involves making requests to the Wisdom
Deity Dorje Shugden to support our spiritual development - helping us
to develop pure inner qualities such as love, compassion, equanimity,
wisdom, and patience.

Our goal in making these prayers is to ask for the best conditions to
follow the Buddhist path to full enlightenment, so that we can help
all living beings find lasting inner peace and happiness.

Abandoned by the Dalai Lama
For reasons that have their roots in the arcane world of Tibetan
politics, some years ago the Dalai Lama of Tibet chose to abandon the
practice and outlaw it among the Tibetan community, claiming that this
Deity was 'evil' and that engaging in the practice caused harm to his
own lifespan and to Tibetan independence.

On the orders of the Dalai Lama, the ban was and continues to be
enforced by the Tibetan Government in Exile and all other Tibetan
Exile associations such as the Tibetan Youth Congress and the Tibetan
Women's Association:

" Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
they do not comply
" Thousands of Shugden practitioners among the Tibetan lay
people are being forced to abandon the practice or lose the support of
their government and face orchestrated public humiliation and
intimidation
" People who refuse to renounce the practice are losing their
jobs, their children are being expelled from schools, and their travel
papers, which require prior authorization from the Tibetan Government
in Exile, are not being endorsed
" Statues have been smashed, temples destroyed, books burned,
practitioner's houses attacked, and even death threats issued in an
orgy of persecution that resembles a medieval witch hunt

Persecution intensifies
This persecution has become progressively more virulent, and in
January 2008, the Dalai Lama issued a new proclamation requiring all
Tibetans to sign a declaration forsaking the practice forever and
promising not to associate in any way - spiritually, financially,
socially or materially - with anyone who does not sign.

Despite the atmosphere of fear and intimidation and the threat to
their own safety and that of their families, thousands of monks and
nuns decided that enough was enough and refused to sign.

They were summarily expelled from their monasteries and nunneries,
forbidden to associate with other Tibetans, even to eat with or shop
from them, and left to fend for themselves without any support.

Untouchables
Although the Tibetans are mere guests in India, the Dalai Lama is
repaying the kindness of the Indian people by violating their
constitution in creating a new group of untouchables. And these from
among his own people!

Having deprived Tibetans in exile of the right to become Indian
citizens and insisted that they all remain subject to his dictatorial
rule, he has effectively condemned those who refuse to compromise the
integrity of their spiritual practice to a double refugee status.
They are refugees from Tibet - stateless in India - and now they are
refugees from their own communities - ostracized and humiliated on the
fringes of Tibetan society.

Inexpressible pain and suffering
And why? Simply because they refuse to abandon a pure and harmless
spiritual practice they have received from their Spiritual Guides.
This tradition goes back centuries. Many of the great Masters of
Tibetan Buddhism received this practice from their Spiritual Guide and
passed it onto their own students - right down to the great Lama,
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who passed it to his disciple, the Dalai
Lama!

In abandoning the practice, the Dalai Lama has broken a commitment to
his Spiritual Guide - almost unthinkable in Buddhism among ordinary
practitioners, never mind from a spiritual leader!

It is almost impossible to explain the inner pain and suffering a
Buddhist would experience if they were forced to abandon a heart
practice given to them by their Spiritual Guide. And yet thousands and
thousands of Tibetans have been forced to do just this by the Dalai
Lama!

Stolen teachings
The Dalai Lama has even gone on record as saying his own Spiritual
Guide and his predecessors through the centuries were wrong!
What a preposterous claim!

Is this the example we are being asked to follow?

In a stunning and flagrant act of almost unbelievable hypocrisy, on
the one hand he condemns his own Spiritual Guides and works to destroy
the very heart of the pure tradition they have preserved through the
centuries, while on the other he struts the world's stage giving
teachings from that very tradition!

Because the pure Dharma he received from his Teacher Kyabje Trijang
Rinpoche is so powerful, everyone who hears those teachings naturally
admires the sentiments they express.

But do they know that he has stolen those teachings? Do they question
whether these noble sentiments are actually present in the mind of the
speaker?

Duplicity
But the hypocrisy and duplicity do not stop there.
Aware of the international public horror at the recent atrocities,
which clearly stem from the single handed actions of the Dalai Lama,
the Tibetan Prime Minister and other Officials of the Tibetan
Government in Exile have started a campaign to distance the Dalai Lama
from these actions and their resulting inhumane victimization of a
section of the Tibetan community.

Threat to religious freedom worldwide
Like a virulent cancer, this discrimination has spread from the
Tibetan community to the world at large.

Because the Dalai Lama generally enjoys uncritical celebrity status in
almost every country, people simply accept what he says without
question

As a result, various western Buddhist centres with a connection to the
Dalai Lama are now signing declarations promising not to engage in the
Shugden practice or to allow into their centre anyone who does. They
are also insulting those practitioners and centres in the west who do
engage in this practice.

Such is the spell cast by the Dalai Lama that these people have
suspended their critical faculties to embrace what is nothing more
than a piece of medieval superstition.
Incredibly, Shugden practitioners in the West are now wrongly being
condemned as non-Buddhists!

Why We Are Protesting
Over the years Shugden practitioners in both the East and the West
have sent many letters and petitions to the Dalai Lama requesting him
to completely stop these actions of discrimination, but, giving
invalid reasons, he has refused to accept our requests.

We are left with no option but to protest publicly in the hope of
drawing the world's attention to this intolerable situation.
In doing so we hope that some people at least will see the hypocrisy
in the Dalai Lama parading as a champion of religious freedom while
conducting religious persecution of his own, and join with us in
demanding that this iniquitous discrimination that is causing so much
pain and suffering stop immediately.

All we ask is to be able to say our prayers and follow the advice of
our Spiritual Guides without fear of persecution, ostracism, and
abuse.

Why is it so hard for a Buddhist leader to agree to this?

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...

Here's a report that isn't so flattering either.

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

This one stinks.

UK contact is a mobile phone number, email address is a free Microsoft one,
no bricks and mortar locations, no names of people you can call up and talk
to, not even somewhere you can send money to...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

In article ,
says...

Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
they do not comply


WTF ?

Unconstitutionally ?

Sounds like someone is confused.

--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

In article ,
tankfixer wrote:

In article ,
says...

Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
they do not comply


WTF ?

Unconstitutionally ?

Sounds like someone is confused.

Maybe he mean unconditionally?

In article ,
NVALID says...
In article ,
tankfixer wrote:

In article ,
says...

Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are
unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if
they do not comply


WTF ?

Unconstitutionally ?

Sounds like someone is confused.

Maybe he mean unconditionally?

Who knows, he probably doesn't


--

"Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!"
- Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond"

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:31 -0700, "Billzz"
wrote:


"JJS" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,

wrote:

-stuff snipped-

That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.


Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?

Joe

I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most
people
do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and
the
brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he
stated
that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
something.

As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so
I
did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the
Dalai
Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and
sang
songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never
out.
Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know.
I
know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe
someone
will be helped.

Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was
interesting.
I don't care, one way or the other.


I guess by now you would have noticed that no one really cares about
the Tibetans unless they can be used to bash China.

Here's a report that isn't so flattering either.

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.


Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.

It also appears this *sect* has been banned in the past, both the 5th and
13th DL's banned it.
Apparently the prime argument is *it* is _too_ spiritual, thusly negating
the Buddist side overly. Or words to that effect

ps: how are those Galun Fong folk doing ?
.....oh yeah and how is that Chinese Communist appointee to the Roman
Catholic Church of China as it's new Bishop, making out ?

cheers....Jeff