Bush 'Plans Iran Air Strike by August'

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.


Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.


Neither have I heard of the Shugdens before this article. The commies
don't play this kind of game - sponsor religious factions. First of
all Beijing wouldn't know how to manipulate religious kooks. Secondly
such schemes will explode in any manipulator's face. Thirdly, the DL
is not worth spending time or money on. The DL's power to influence
China is strictly a figment of his Western sponsor's imagination.

The DL certainly has no illusions. Beijing's talks with his
representatives are handled at a pretty low administrative level. In
the half century, or specifically the last 30 years when the DL
switched tactics to claim that he no longer seeks independence, only
the spiritual and cultural wellbeing of Tibetans, the DL will always
derail the the talks by making Politically Incorrect (PC) comments
like claiming that he represents 6 1/2 million Tibetans (it is 2 1/2
million)over the the territories where there are Tibetan communities.
Thus the DL is claiming an empire that spreads into adjacent Chinese
provinces that were never part of Tibet. This nuance will be missed
by Western supporters most of whom have trouble even finding Tibet on
the map. And the DL has a pretty good armory of just such PC stuff to
pick from to play his game.

I picked a Tibet website at random http://www.tibet.com/. I haven't
read it in detail and neither will you. But do scan the contents
under a few random titles anyway. They are practically all political
claims. Now had the DL really wanted to return to Tibet the common
sense thing to do would be to keep quiet on politics until the
opportunity for a personal face to face with the Chinese President or
some Politburo Member is secured first. This will be tacit
recognition of his equal status at the highest political level. China
isn't that dumb to fall for that kind of trick but these are the
negotiating positions DL should be aiming for. An alternative
maneuver would be to trick the Chinese into letting him visit Tibet
itself. In the 30 years the DL has learned to play his game with
exquisite finesse - not to ever personally get anywhere near the
negotiation table and blame the Chinese for it. Pass around the
collection plate please. The DL is going to make another tour to
gullible rich white countries.


It also appears this *sect* has been banned in the past, both the 5th and
13th DL's banned it.
Apparently the prime argument is *it* is _too_ spiritual, thusly negating
the Buddist side overly. Or words to that effect

Well this Shugden sect is in England where the DL has no jurisdiction,
and in Nepal the Nepalese get to make the rules who can and cannot do.
The DL's goons have no business policing anything. What about
religious freedom you and the DL claim to defend to your last dollar?
Didn't I see a shaven headed white woman convert talking to our
Guardian reporter? What's she to the DL as a religious threat that
her type must be suppressed viciously?

If the ban goes back to the 5th and 13th DLs then this is amazing new
evidence that China's suzerainty over Tibet goes back before the 5th
DL as certainly that relationship could not have started with the 5th.
[It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of
China. you say]

ps: how are those Galun Fong folk doing ?
.....oh yeah and how is that Chinese Communist appointee to the Roman
Catholic Church of China as it's new Bishop, making out ?


Quite well thank you. Do send them a letter to get their first hand
account of life in China.

American and a number of rich white country church groups used to be
all worked up about China's persecution of FLG practitioners. They
fought for their exit from China and sponsored their resettlement in
their church community. They even provided resettlement support
(housing, money) and transition assistance (jobs, interpreters,
navigating the bureaucracy, etc.) until they wised up to the fact they
had been had by scheme for mature single Chinese women with little
career prospects in China to get into the US (Australia and Canada),
the short cut way complete with a red carpet welcome.

For a time between the 80s into the 90s there were other creative
schemes besides the FLG to get into the rich white countries.
Political dissent (still a good one but very hard to
establish),anti-communism and love for democracy always worked for a
time, human rights, anti-one child policy, forced abortions, religious
persecution and a few more I can't recall at the moment. Those too
impatient or not clever enough to cook up a con took to rusty ship way
across the Pacific. US public sentiment forced the US government to
grant instant refugees status to those faux refugees from Chinese
persecution. They all heve the same well rehersed sob story if the
media reports are anything to go by. But even dumb Americans cannot
remain dumb forever. Mid ocean interception by USN units, isolation
in Guam, and of course stateless limbo, put a stop to that. 9-11
helped.

These living breathing examples of persecuted Chinese whose epic
struggles against heroic odds to make it out of oppressive China to
the West have been around for 30 years now. Tens of housands had
escaped from prison China and found refuge in rich white countries.
Surely by now one would have expected heart rendering Puliter Prize
stories to have been published, to have articulate spokesmen and women
who could give voice to their (masses of persecuted Chinese) common
experiences. What about those heroes of Tiananmen Square who made it
to the West?

Given that the 80s to 90s was the peak you are a kind of behind the
times in the smarts index. You know what Jeff? You are such a nice
guy so concerned about the welfare of the oppressed. There's
something you can do after all. Sponsor a Tibetan from Tibet and
educate him or her. That person then becomes a productive member able
to function in a modern society. That person can help his or her
fellow Tibetans better than you will ever hope to do. Go for it.

cheers....Jeff

Double cheers to you too.
for mature single Chinese women with little career prospects in China
to get into the US (Australia and Canada), the short cut way complete
with a red carpet welcome.

For a time between the 80s into the 90s there were other creative
schemes besides the FLG to get into the rich white countries.
Political dissent (still a good one but very hard to
establish),anti-communism and love for democracy always worked for a
time, human rights, anti-one child policy, forced abortions, religious
persecution and a few more I can't recall at the moment. Those too
impatient or not clever enough to cook up a con took to rusty ship way
across the Pacific. US public sentiment forced the US government to
grant instant refugees status to those faux refugees from Chinese
persecution. They all heve the same well rehersed sob story if the
media reports are anything to go by. But even dumb Americans cannot
remain dumb forever. Mid ocean interception by USN units, isolation
in Guam, and of course stateless limbo, put a stop to that. 9-11
helped.

These living breathing examples of persecuted Chinese whose epic
struggles against heroic odds to make it out of oppressive China to
the West have been around for 30 years now. Tens of housands had
escaped from prison China and found refuge in rich white countries.
Surely by now one would have expected heart rendering Puliter Prize
stories to have been published, to have articulate spokesmen and women
who could give voice to their (masses of persecuted Chinese) common
experiences. What about those heroes of Tiananmen Square who made it
to the West?

Given that the 80s to 90s was the peak you are a kind of behind the
times in the smarts index. You know what Jeff? You are such a nice
guy so concerned about the welfare of the oppressed. There's
something you can do after all. Sponsor a Tibetan from Tibet and
educate him or her. That person then becomes a productive member able
to function in a modern society. That person can help his or her
fellow Tibetans better than you will ever hope to do. Go for it.

cheers....Jeff

Double cheers to you too.

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Stop religious persecution
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly
practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden.


Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a
little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.


Neither have I heard of the Shugdens before this article. The commies
don't play this kind of game - sponsor religious factions. First of
all Beijing wouldn't know how to manipulate religious kooks. Secondly
such schemes will explode in any manipulator's face.

Well yes.

They don't know how to do it.

It does seem to be busy blowing up in their faces.

This one is so transparently dodgy it's frightening.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.


I expect your google turned up this story too?
===========================================

A quiet, middle-class café in Westminster, in the political heart of
London, is the last place you would expect to hear someone badmouthing
the Dalai Lama. When that someone is a Buddhist nun, dressed in
trademark maroon robes and with shorn hair, it seems even more
peculiar. 'The Dalai Lama is a hypocrite and an oppressor', says
Kelsang Pema over a glass of water with ice (what else?), as she
fishes from her rucksack 'stacks of evidence' to show me why the Dalai
Lama 'cannot be trusted'. A well-to-do blonde-haired woman in a power
suit shoots us strange looks from the adjacent table. Slating the
Dalai Lama, especially on a crisp, sunny Monday morning as he is due
to arrive in Britain for an official visit, is not the done thing in
polite circles in London.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.p.../article/5170/

Kelsang Pema - birth name: Helen Gradwell, born and brought up in
Carlisle, England - is a leading member of the Western Shugden
Society, a group of Buddhists who worship the 'wisdom deity' Dorje
Shugden. Buddhists, especially in Tibet, have been saying the Dorje
Shugden prayer for more than 350 years. Pema tells me 'the prayer
becomes your life, your breath'. Buddhists call on Dorje Shugden to
'help us develop pure qualities', she says, 'including love,
compassion and patience'. There's only one problem: the Dalai Lama,
head of the Tibetan government-in-exile in northern India and
considered by many Buddhists to be a figurehead of their faith,
effectively outlawed the worship of Dorje Shugden in 1996 and
overnight transformed Shugden-following Buddhists into heretics and
untouchables.
In March 1996, the Dalai Lama decreed that the worship of Dorje
Shugden was 'evil'. In what is believed to have been part of an
internal power struggle in his fiefdom-in-exile in Dharamsala,
northern India, the Dalai Lama ordered all worshippers of Dorje
Shugden to leave his temple on 21 March 1996. A week later, on 30
March 1996, the Assembly of Tibetan People's Deputies (the parliament
in exile) passed a resolution banning the worship of Dorje Shugden by
Tibetan government employees, and the Private Office of His Holiness
the Dalai Lama issued a formal decree for everyone to stop practising
the Dorje Shugden prayer. The New Internationalist reported that the
Lama's office wrote to every monastery in northern India and Tibet
demanding that they 'ensure total implementation of this decree by
each and everyone… If there is anyone who continues to worship [Dorje
Shugden], make a list of their names, house name, birth place… Keep
the original and send us a copy of the list.' (1)
'After the Dalai Lama's decree, anyone who continued to follow Dorje
Shugden got it in the neck', Pema says. By 1998, two years after the
Dalai Lama described Dorje Shugden as 'evil' and instructed
monasteries to collect the names of those disobedient Buddhists who
continued worshipping it, an Indian human rights lawyer, PK Dey, had
collected 300 statements from Tibetans in exile in India who had been
either threatened or attacked for failing to comply with the Dalai
Lama's orders. 'Those worshipping Shugden are experiencing tremendous
harassment', said Dey. 'This is not in any particular part of the
country but everywhere there are Tibetans.' (2) In December 1996, one
72-year-old woman, Sonam Bhuti, whose family had worshipped Dorje
Shugden for generations, reported to the Office of the Notary in Delhi
(a civil law institution) that Tibetan officials had ransacked her and
others' homes, 'forcibly taking out the idols and paintings [of Dorje
Shugden]' and 'burning' and 'breaking' them (3).
The Dalai Lama's officials sought to expel Dorje Shugden worshippers
from positions of power and responsibility in both northern India and
Tibet. On 18 April 1996, the Tibetan Department of Health wrote to
doctors and threatened to sack any who continued worshipping the
deity: 'In case there is anyone who doesn't abide by the addresses of
His Holiness to give up Shugden worship… such persons should submit
their resignation.' (4) On 19 May 1998, the Tibetan Department of
Religion and Culture advised welfare and settlement officers of the
conditions under which Tibetan monks and nuns could leave Tibet or
northern India to travel to other parts of the world. Condition no.3
required 'attestation from their monastery that neither the host [nor
the] invitee is a devotee of Dhogyal [a derogatory name for Dorje
Shugden]' (5). In 1998, the New Internationalist reported that there
was little point in Dorje Shugden worshippers protesting against their
maltreatment - one group of worshippers was told by Tibetan officials
that 'concepts like democracy and freedom of religion are empty when
it comes to the wellbeing of the Dalai Lama' (6).
Into the 2000s, the Dalai Lama has continued to harry the remaining
Shugden followers. The German newspaper Suddeutsche Zeitung reported
recently that 'in Tibet, many practise Shugden only "discreetly",
since their practice has been rejected by the Dalai Lama… as evil'
(7). In January this year, the Dalia Lama held a referendum among
Tibetan monks to decide whether it is acceptable to worship Dorje
Shugden. Yet Pema says it wasn't a referendum 'in any democratic
sense'. Instead, monks had to choose a red stick or a yellow stick
from a basket, publicly and in front of their superiors; they picked
the yellow stick if they opposed the worship of Dorje Shugden and the
red stick if they supported the right of people to worship the deity.
Perhaps not surprisingly, given the Dalai Lama's decrees against the
worship of Dorje Shugden and the public, archaic nature of the
referendum, the yellow sticks won (8). 'In Britain and America, the
Dalai Lama is a religious hero. But for many he is a religious
dictator', says Pema.
Some denounce the Dorje Shugden followers as mouthpieces for China.
Pema denies it. 'Anyone who criticises the Dalai Lama is written off
as a Chinese puppet', she says. 'It's just another way of shutting
down debate. People in the West look upon Tibet as this ideal place,
but Tibetans find it hard to have serious debates or to stand up to
the Dalai Lama. It's almost medieval.' Others have made a similar
point about the way the Dalai Lama's unquestionable status as high
representative of the Tibetan people and all things Buddhist stifles
the development of Tibetan public life. In her book The Tibetan
Independent Movement: Political, Religious and Gandhian Perspectives,
Jane Ardley argued that in terms of the development of internal
political life in Tibet and Dharamsala, '[It] is apparent that it is
the Dalai Lama's role as ultimate spiritual authority that is holding
back the political process of democratisation. The assumption that he
occupies the correct moral ground from a spiritual perspective means
that any challenge to his political authority may be interpreted as
anti-religious.' (9)

Others claim that the 'Dorje Shugden clique' is a cult. They do indeed
have cultish qualities, devoting their life and love to an archaic
Buddhist deity. But then many Buddhist and other religious groups
could be described as 'cultish'. The most striking thing about the
Dorje Shugden story is the Western media's lack of interest in it.
Pema has had meetings with British MPs - yet while some 'were
interested', she says 'they knew that criticising the Dalai Lama would
damage their reputations'. She has held press conferences 'but they
are usually poorly attended'. The media do, however, turn up to the
Western Shugden Society's anti-Dalai Lama protests - such as the one
that will take place at the Royal Albert Hall on Thursday this week -
but usually only so they can publish stories about 'mad Buddhists
attacking the Dalai Lama', she says.
The state of denial in the West about some of the Dalai Lama's alleged
power-tripping, or at least the unquestioning attitude towards the
Dalai Lama and everything that he does, highlights the role that he
plays for many Western celebs, commentators and politicians today:
he's a cartoon 'good guy', giggling, pure and righteous, who
apparently should be unconditionally applauded for standing up to the
'Evil Chinese'. All of the Dalai Lama's bad points - his origins in
the stifling medievalism of 1930s Tibet; his archaic practices; his
disregard for 'concepts like democracy and freedom of religion'; his
backing from the CIA in its Cold War with the Chinese - are simply
ignored, as His Holiness is invited to guest-edit French Vogue, attend
charity auctions with Sharon 'Look at My Vagina' Stone, and rub
shoulders with Richard Gere. Pema shows me the Independent on Sunday,
published the day before we met, which has a feature about the Dalai
Lama 'charming the West'. There are around 12 photos showing him
meeting celebrites and other do-gooders. Yet in two of the photos, it
isn't the Dalai Lama at all; it's a different Lama. Maybe these
Tibetans all look the same to British picture editors.
'He's just a photograph and a symbol to many people in the West', says
Pema. 'But the reality is very different.'
Brendan O'Neill is editor of spiked. Visit his website here.

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote:

Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a
little
googling.

It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China.
Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL.


I expect your google turned up this story too?
===========================================

A quiet, middle-class café in Westminster, in the political heart of
London, is the last place you would expect to hear someone badmouthing
the Dalai Lama.

It's all sounding like a disinformation campaign.

I notice nobody from the real press has picked up the 'Spiked' story.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

In article , "Billzz"
wrote:

"JJS" wrote in message
. ..
In article ,

wrote:

-stuff snipped-

That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and
it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are
being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it.


Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what
my position is concerning the Dalai Lama?

Joe

I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an
interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned
person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a
dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people
do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices
that were very close to slavery.


As good a description as I've heard. Definitely not a paradise
for the masses.


The selection of the next Dalai Lama was
done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the
brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents,
they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best
and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others
were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were
essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated
that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan
people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of
course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but
with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear
something.

Hard to tell but the average guy was probably more concerned with
just surviving.


As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I
did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai
Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see)


I've seen a couple in Portland and they are amazing to watch being
created.


and sang
songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and
looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good
people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out.
Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I
know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone
will be helped.

Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting.
I don't care, one way or the other.

Thanks it was interesting.

Joe

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:08:31 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

So we are back to the "white man's burden" excuse again. Look
we both know that it doesn't matter what the life style of Tibet
is. This is all about power so why keep bringing up how good
this is for Tibet when is has nothing to do with helping Tibet.
Well I guess you could say that the Chinese are 'helping' themselves
to the resources of Tibet.


Geezee how many times did you have to repeat a grade before you got
your 3Rs right?

Beijing already has all the power. She doesn't need to prove anything
to anyone least of all to people like you. Beijing has a National
Policy for Minorities of which Tibetans form a group that receives the
most attention. Belonging to a Chinese minority group brings useful
privileges such as being allowed to have more children and these
children have preferential admission to institutions of higher
learning, the passport to the good life. As such quite a number of
identifiable community groups seek Minority status.
http://www.everyculture.com/Russia-E...-Policies.html

I made no claim that Beijing's Tibet policy is good for the Tibetans.
What Beijing does is pragmatism. Its a damn lot chaper and easier to
pay displaced Tibetans to get by than it is to try to force feed them
ill thought out "Tibet" solutions. Your experience in the west had
seen many multi-million dollar welfare type attempts go to waste. All
those failures do is to reinforce the target group's sense of failure
and the futility of their lives. The smarter ones develop a penchant
to game the system for whatever dollars they can get before another
do-good project goes south.

Your responses so far is to patronize the Tibetans by saying that all
their problems can be solved if only Beijing cared. In the same
breath you contradict yourself "if only Beijing would leave them alone
to work out something at their own pace and time" Tibetans will
achieve nirvana. You really have some personal issues to resolve
first.

That New Town resettlement for Tibetans displaced by climate change
actually tells many stories. There are no laws that keep them there.
There are no restrictions as to what work they can engage in. There
are no laws to say they cannot go back to their old style of life (or
a new style if they chose to do so) anywhere in Tibet or elsewhere in
China. Yet they stay and they remain bored out of their frigging
minds. The incontrovertible fact then is there is nowhere in the
whole vast country of China that they can they recreate their former
lives. The world has changed and its not the Government's fault.
Therefore all this talk about preserving their culture won't bring
back their former lives. The best and perhaps only way they can
practice it is in the form of festivals. For their everyday lives
they must adapt to realities, and that is to find some form of work
they can do. What this form will take is something neither you nor I
have a clue on since neither of us have been to Tibet let alone what
their hopes and capabilities are. You have neither the intellectual
nor the moral authority to speak for them.








================================

Chinese Policy on Minorities
http://www.paulnoll.com/China/Minori...in-policy.html
General

These fifty-six are extremely diverse. Some of the minorities,
including the Hui and the Zhuang, are very similar to the Han; others
are very different, for instance, the Turkic peoples of the west such
as the Uygurs or Kazakhs, or the Iranian Tajiks. The Minority
nationalities occupy about 60 per cent of China's territory,
including, above all, the vast western areas.

Policy

Chinese policy officially opposes forced assimilation and allows
autonomy to the minority nationalities, so that they can retain their
own characteristics. Under this policy, the government has set up
numerous autonomous areas throughout China. The policy's real effect,
however, can best be described as integration.

Policy on Secession

Both policy and reality are fiercely opposed to outright secession,
which the government has suppressed brutally on several occasions.
Such occasions occurred in the years of 1959, 1987, and 1989. Most of
the minorities have succeeded in integrating reasonably well with the
Han, but independence or secessionist and wishes have remained strong
among a few, particularly the Tibetans. Ethnic dissent among some
nationalities could easily develop as an issue in the coming years.

Census Situation

In the 1953 census 41 minority nationalities were specified. In the
1964 census, there were 183 nationalities registered, among which the
government recognized only 54. Of the remaining 129 nationalities, 74
were considered to be part of the officially recognized 54, 23 were
classified as "other nationalities" and the remaining 32 were
classified as "indeterminate." The numbers of population has some
suspect due to the re-registration of significant numbers of Han
people as members of minority nationalities, an action which brought
with it personal benefits. Also some did so as it relates to the
substantial (though not total) exemption of members of minority
nationalities from the family planning policy of "one family one
child".

"PaPaPeng" wrote in message
...

Belonging to a Chinese minority group brings useful
privileges such as being allowed to have more children

An interesting statement.

Someone asked me the other day why India's population is still climbing at a
hell of a rate when the Chinese population is pretty stable, and why can't
the Indian government impose 'child quotas' in the same way they do in
China.

I explained that any Indian government that tried would be out on their
arses at the next election, that India is a democracy and that people there
take that democracy very seriously indeed.

I wish people would take politics as seriously here.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 16:08:31 -0700, (JJS)
wrote:

So we are back to the "white man's burden" excuse again. Look
we both know that it doesn't matter what the life style of Tibet
is. This is all about power so why keep bringing up how good
this is for Tibet when is has nothing to do with helping Tibet.
Well I guess you could say that the Chinese are 'helping' themselves
to the resources of Tibet.


Geezee how many times did you have to repeat a grade before you got
your 3Rs right?


Take a deep breath and calm down. You¹re beginning to act childish.



Beijing already has all the power.


Which I have agreed is correct several times. Why repeat what we
have agreed to? Do I need to type it in capitals for you to
understand?


She doesn't need to prove anything
to anyone least of all to people like you.


Where did I say they had to prove anything to me?
You¹re becoming irrational.


Beijing has a National
Policy for Minorities of which Tibetans form a group that receives the
most attention.


Lucky for Tibet or should that be unlucky?


Belonging to a Chinese minority group brings useful
privileges such as being allowed to have more children and these
children have preferential admission to institutions of higher
learning, the passport to the good life. As such quite a number of
identifiable community groups seek Minority status.


You do realize don¹t you that power over a group is maintained not
only with force but with privileges? This is pretty basic when
one group is trying to maintain control over another.



http://www.everyculture.com/Russia-E...to-China-Minor
ity-Policies.html

I made no claim that Beijing's Tibet policy is good for the Tibetans.


You say this so why keep bringing up how good it is for them?

"being allowed to have more children and these
children have preferential admission to institutions of higher
learning, the passport to the good life'"

To put it politely you¹re being inconsistent.


What Beijing does is pragmatism. Its a damn lot chaper and easier to
pay displaced Tibetans to get by than it is to try to force feed them
ill thought out "Tibet" solutions. Your experience in the west had
seen many multi-million dollar welfare type attempts go to waste. All
those failures do is to reinforce the target group's sense of failure
and the futility of their lives. The smarter ones develop a penchant
to game the system for whatever dollars they can get before another
do-good project goes south.


It may surprise you but I agree.



Your responses so far is to patronize the Tibetans by saying that all
their problems can be solved if only Beijing cared.


Sigh. No I merely asked if more local control of their lives would work
out better for Tibet. You have a knack for distorting what I write.


In the same
breath you contradict yourself "if only Beijing would leave them alone
to work out something at their own pace and time" Tibetans will
achieve nirvana.


I didn¹t write or insinuate that Tibet would reach ³nirvana². I asked if
it was possible for them to develop with less Chinese intervention than
we see today. You seem to have a low opinion of the people in Tibet.
Why it that?


You really have some personal issues to resolve
first.


Oh the irony!!! 8^D



That New Town resettlement for Tibetans displaced by climate change
actually tells many stories. There are no laws that keep them there.
There are no restrictions as to what work they can engage in. There
are no laws to say they cannot go back to their old style of life (or
a new style if they chose to do so) anywhere in Tibet or elsewhere in
China.


You don't need laws when you completely dominate another group
of people. There are different ways control them. You can move
large numbers of Han into Tibet and change the demographics to
the point that the locals realize that they need to play the game
by the new rules.


Yet they stay and they remain bored out of their frigging
minds. The incontrovertible fact then is there is nowhere in the
whole vast country of China that they can they recreate their former
lives. The world has changed and its not the Government's fault.


Pay attention. I haven¹t claimed that it is the "Government¹s fault".
I¹ve been asking about how the Chinese government is handling the
situation and why they have selected this approach to the problem.


Therefore all this talk about preserving their culture won't bring
back their former lives. The best and perhaps only way they can
practice it is in the form of festivals. For their everyday lives
they must adapt to realities, and that is to find some form of work
they can do.


And not for the first time I agree but this isn't what we
are really talking about is it?


What this form will take is something neither you nor I
have a clue on since neither of us have been to Tibet let alone what
their hopes and capabilities are.


We agree again.


You have neither the intellectual
nor the moral authority to speak for them.


Since I haven¹t claimed to speak for them I don¹t see the sense in this
statement. Your post may hold the record for the most Straw Man Arguements
contained in a single post.

Joe


SNIP