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![]() "JJS" wrote in message . .. In article , wrote: -stuff snipped- That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it. Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what my position is concerning the Dalai Lama? Joe I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents, they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear something. As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and sang songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out. Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone will be helped. Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting. I don't care, one way or the other. |
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On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:31 -0700, "Billzz"
wrote: "JJS" wrote in message . .. In article , wrote: -stuff snipped- That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it. Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what my position is concerning the Dalai Lama? Joe I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents, they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear something. As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and sang songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out. Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone will be helped. Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting. I don't care, one way or the other. I guess by now you would have noticed that no one really cares about the Tibetans unless they can be used to bash China. Here's a report that isn't so flattering either. Stop religious persecution http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/ Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden. This centuries-old practice involves making requests to the Wisdom Deity Dorje Shugden to support our spiritual development - helping us to develop pure inner qualities such as love, compassion, equanimity, wisdom, and patience. Our goal in making these prayers is to ask for the best conditions to follow the Buddhist path to full enlightenment, so that we can help all living beings find lasting inner peace and happiness. Abandoned by the Dalai Lama For reasons that have their roots in the arcane world of Tibetan politics, some years ago the Dalai Lama of Tibet chose to abandon the practice and outlaw it among the Tibetan community, claiming that this Deity was 'evil' and that engaging in the practice caused harm to his own lifespan and to Tibetan independence. On the orders of the Dalai Lama, the ban was and continues to be enforced by the Tibetan Government in Exile and all other Tibetan Exile associations such as the Tibetan Youth Congress and the Tibetan Women's Association: " Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if they do not comply " Thousands of Shugden practitioners among the Tibetan lay people are being forced to abandon the practice or lose the support of their government and face orchestrated public humiliation and intimidation " People who refuse to renounce the practice are losing their jobs, their children are being expelled from schools, and their travel papers, which require prior authorization from the Tibetan Government in Exile, are not being endorsed " Statues have been smashed, temples destroyed, books burned, practitioner's houses attacked, and even death threats issued in an orgy of persecution that resembles a medieval witch hunt Persecution intensifies This persecution has become progressively more virulent, and in January 2008, the Dalai Lama issued a new proclamation requiring all Tibetans to sign a declaration forsaking the practice forever and promising not to associate in any way - spiritually, financially, socially or materially - with anyone who does not sign. Despite the atmosphere of fear and intimidation and the threat to their own safety and that of their families, thousands of monks and nuns decided that enough was enough and refused to sign. They were summarily expelled from their monasteries and nunneries, forbidden to associate with other Tibetans, even to eat with or shop from them, and left to fend for themselves without any support. Untouchables Although the Tibetans are mere guests in India, the Dalai Lama is repaying the kindness of the Indian people by violating their constitution in creating a new group of untouchables. And these from among his own people! Having deprived Tibetans in exile of the right to become Indian citizens and insisted that they all remain subject to his dictatorial rule, he has effectively condemned those who refuse to compromise the integrity of their spiritual practice to a double refugee status. They are refugees from Tibet - stateless in India - and now they are refugees from their own communities - ostracized and humiliated on the fringes of Tibetan society. Inexpressible pain and suffering And why? Simply because they refuse to abandon a pure and harmless spiritual practice they have received from their Spiritual Guides. This tradition goes back centuries. Many of the great Masters of Tibetan Buddhism received this practice from their Spiritual Guide and passed it onto their own students - right down to the great Lama, Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, who passed it to his disciple, the Dalai Lama! In abandoning the practice, the Dalai Lama has broken a commitment to his Spiritual Guide - almost unthinkable in Buddhism among ordinary practitioners, never mind from a spiritual leader! It is almost impossible to explain the inner pain and suffering a Buddhist would experience if they were forced to abandon a heart practice given to them by their Spiritual Guide. And yet thousands and thousands of Tibetans have been forced to do just this by the Dalai Lama! Stolen teachings The Dalai Lama has even gone on record as saying his own Spiritual Guide and his predecessors through the centuries were wrong! What a preposterous claim! Is this the example we are being asked to follow? In a stunning and flagrant act of almost unbelievable hypocrisy, on the one hand he condemns his own Spiritual Guides and works to destroy the very heart of the pure tradition they have preserved through the centuries, while on the other he struts the world's stage giving teachings from that very tradition! Because the pure Dharma he received from his Teacher Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche is so powerful, everyone who hears those teachings naturally admires the sentiments they express. But do they know that he has stolen those teachings? Do they question whether these noble sentiments are actually present in the mind of the speaker? Duplicity But the hypocrisy and duplicity do not stop there. Aware of the international public horror at the recent atrocities, which clearly stem from the single handed actions of the Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Prime Minister and other Officials of the Tibetan Government in Exile have started a campaign to distance the Dalai Lama from these actions and their resulting inhumane victimization of a section of the Tibetan community. Threat to religious freedom worldwide Like a virulent cancer, this discrimination has spread from the Tibetan community to the world at large. Because the Dalai Lama generally enjoys uncritical celebrity status in almost every country, people simply accept what he says without question As a result, various western Buddhist centres with a connection to the Dalai Lama are now signing declarations promising not to engage in the Shugden practice or to allow into their centre anyone who does. They are also insulting those practitioners and centres in the west who do engage in this practice. Such is the spell cast by the Dalai Lama that these people have suspended their critical faculties to embrace what is nothing more than a piece of medieval superstition. Incredibly, Shugden practitioners in the West are now wrongly being condemned as non-Buddhists! Why We Are Protesting Over the years Shugden practitioners in both the East and the West have sent many letters and petitions to the Dalai Lama requesting him to completely stop these actions of discrimination, but, giving invalid reasons, he has refused to accept our requests. We are left with no option but to protest publicly in the hope of drawing the world's attention to this intolerable situation. In doing so we hope that some people at least will see the hypocrisy in the Dalai Lama parading as a champion of religious freedom while conducting religious persecution of his own, and join with us in demanding that this iniquitous discrimination that is causing so much pain and suffering stop immediately. All we ask is to be able to say our prayers and follow the advice of our Spiritual Guides without fear of persecution, ostracism, and abuse. Why is it so hard for a Buddhist leader to agree to this? |
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![]() "PaPaPeng" wrote in message ... Here's a report that isn't so flattering either. Stop religious persecution http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/ This one stinks. UK contact is a mobile phone number, email address is a free Microsoft one, no bricks and mortar locations, no names of people you can call up and talk to, not even somewhere you can send money to... -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
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In article ,
tankfixer wrote: In article , says... Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if they do not comply WTF ? Unconstitutionally ? Sounds like someone is confused. Maybe he mean unconditionally? |
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In article ,
NVALID says... In article , tankfixer wrote: In article , says... Monks and nuns are forbidden to do the practice and are unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries and nunneries if they do not comply WTF ? Unconstitutionally ? Sounds like someone is confused. Maybe he mean unconditionally? Who knows, he probably doesn't -- "Oh Norman, listen! The loons are calling!" - Katherine Hepburn, "On Golden Pond" |
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![]() "PaPaPeng" wrote in message ... On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:27:31 -0700, "Billzz" wrote: "JJS" wrote in message . .. In article , wrote: -stuff snipped- That's very acceptable to China for the DL remains outside China and it doesn't cost China a single penny to keep the DL out. You guys are being manipulated by the DL and you didn't recognize it. Really. I'm being manipulated? Then perhaps you can tell me what my position is concerning the Dalai Lama? Joe I was just passing by, and have no horse in this race, but I do have an interesting story. Years ago I was in the far east, and met a learned person, (probably in an airport bar, so take everything I next say with a dose of salt) and the subject got around to Tibet. He said that most people do not know that Tibet was once a feudal serfdom, and had some practices that were very close to slavery. The selection of the next Dalai Lama was done by having the monks (lamas?) scour the countryside for the best and the brightest amongst young males and then, with the agreement of the parents, they would be taken back to Lhasa? and trained and examined, and the best and the brightest would be the next Dalai Lama in waiting, and the others were on standby. But the thing is that none of them went back. They were essentially indentured servants. I don't remember everything, but he stated that this is probably why there is no real revolution amongst the Tibetan people, because they (maybe?) do not want the Dalai Lama system back. Of course the Chinese government could be pounding them into the ground, but with today's communication, and travelers, one thinks that one should hear something. As an aside, we have a friend who supports that brand of Buddhism, and so I did meet with some saffron-robed Buddhist (priests?) who were from the Dalai Lama's sect. They did a sand mandela (which is something to see) and sang songs, and we saw slides of their monastery (which is now in India, and looked very Spartan, indeed) and I thought that they were probably good people, but they were definitely of a single culture - once in , never out. Maybe it is the same as a monk in the Catholic church, but I don't know. I know that my wife spent a hundred dollars for some blankets. Maybe someone will be helped. Anyway, I do not know if his story is true, or not, but it was interesting. I don't care, one way or the other. I guess by now you would have noticed that no one really cares about the Tibetans unless they can be used to bash China. Here's a report that isn't so flattering either. Stop religious persecution http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/ Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden. Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little googling. It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China. Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL. It also appears this *sect* has been banned in the past, both the 5th and 13th DL's banned it. Apparently the prime argument is *it* is _too_ spiritual, thusly negating the Buddist side overly. Or words to that effect ps: how are those Galun Fong folk doing ? .....oh yeah and how is that Chinese Communist appointee to the Roman Catholic Church of China as it's new Bishop, making out ? cheers....Jeff |
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On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton"
wrote: Stop religious persecution http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/ Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden. Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little googling. It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China. Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL. Neither have I heard of the Shugdens before this article. The commies don't play this kind of game - sponsor religious factions. First of all Beijing wouldn't know how to manipulate religious kooks. Secondly such schemes will explode in any manipulator's face. Thirdly, the DL is not worth spending time or money on. The DL's power to influence China is strictly a figment of his Western sponsor's imagination. The DL certainly has no illusions. Beijing's talks with his representatives are handled at a pretty low administrative level. In the half century, or specifically the last 30 years when the DL switched tactics to claim that he no longer seeks independence, only the spiritual and cultural wellbeing of Tibetans, the DL will always derail the the talks by making Politically Incorrect (PC) comments like claiming that he represents 6 1/2 million Tibetans (it is 2 1/2 million)over the the territories where there are Tibetan communities. Thus the DL is claiming an empire that spreads into adjacent Chinese provinces that were never part of Tibet. This nuance will be missed by Western supporters most of whom have trouble even finding Tibet on the map. And the DL has a pretty good armory of just such PC stuff to pick from to play his game. I picked a Tibet website at random http://www.tibet.com/. I haven't read it in detail and neither will you. But do scan the contents under a few random titles anyway. They are practically all political claims. Now had the DL really wanted to return to Tibet the common sense thing to do would be to keep quiet on politics until the opportunity for a personal face to face with the Chinese President or some Politburo Member is secured first. This will be tacit recognition of his equal status at the highest political level. China isn't that dumb to fall for that kind of trick but these are the negotiating positions DL should be aiming for. An alternative maneuver would be to trick the Chinese into letting him visit Tibet itself. In the 30 years the DL has learned to play his game with exquisite finesse - not to ever personally get anywhere near the negotiation table and blame the Chinese for it. Pass around the collection plate please. The DL is going to make another tour to gullible rich white countries. It also appears this *sect* has been banned in the past, both the 5th and 13th DL's banned it. Apparently the prime argument is *it* is _too_ spiritual, thusly negating the Buddist side overly. Or words to that effect Well this Shugden sect is in England where the DL has no jurisdiction, and in Nepal the Nepalese get to make the rules who can and cannot do. The DL's goons have no business policing anything. What about religious freedom you and the DL claim to defend to your last dollar? Didn't I see a shaven headed white woman convert talking to our Guardian reporter? What's she to the DL as a religious threat that her type must be suppressed viciously? If the ban goes back to the 5th and 13th DLs then this is amazing new evidence that China's suzerainty over Tibet goes back before the 5th DL as certainly that relationship could not have started with the 5th. [It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China. you say] ps: how are those Galun Fong folk doing ? .....oh yeah and how is that Chinese Communist appointee to the Roman Catholic Church of China as it's new Bishop, making out ? Quite well thank you. Do send them a letter to get their first hand account of life in China. American and a number of rich white country church groups used to be all worked up about China's persecution of FLG practitioners. They fought for their exit from China and sponsored their resettlement in their church community. They even provided resettlement support (housing, money) and transition assistance (jobs, interpreters, navigating the bureaucracy, etc.) until they wised up to the fact they had been had by scheme for mature single Chinese women with little career prospects in China to get into the US (Australia and Canada), the short cut way complete with a red carpet welcome. For a time between the 80s into the 90s there were other creative schemes besides the FLG to get into the rich white countries. Political dissent (still a good one but very hard to establish),anti-communism and love for democracy always worked for a time, human rights, anti-one child policy, forced abortions, religious persecution and a few more I can't recall at the moment. Those too impatient or not clever enough to cook up a con took to rusty ship way across the Pacific. US public sentiment forced the US government to grant instant refugees status to those faux refugees from Chinese persecution. They all heve the same well rehersed sob story if the media reports are anything to go by. But even dumb Americans cannot remain dumb forever. Mid ocean interception by USN units, isolation in Guam, and of course stateless limbo, put a stop to that. 9-11 helped. These living breathing examples of persecuted Chinese whose epic struggles against heroic odds to make it out of oppressive China to the West have been around for 30 years now. Tens of housands had escaped from prison China and found refuge in rich white countries. Surely by now one would have expected heart rendering Puliter Prize stories to have been published, to have articulate spokesmen and women who could give voice to their (masses of persecuted Chinese) common experiences. What about those heroes of Tiananmen Square who made it to the West? Given that the 80s to 90s was the peak you are a kind of behind the times in the smarts index. You know what Jeff? You are such a nice guy so concerned about the welfare of the oppressed. There's something you can do after all. Sponsor a Tibetan from Tibet and educate him or her. That person then becomes a productive member able to function in a modern society. That person can help his or her fellow Tibetans better than you will ever hope to do. Go for it. cheers....Jeff Double cheers to you too. for mature single Chinese women with little career prospects in China to get into the US (Australia and Canada), the short cut way complete with a red carpet welcome. For a time between the 80s into the 90s there were other creative schemes besides the FLG to get into the rich white countries. Political dissent (still a good one but very hard to establish),anti-communism and love for democracy always worked for a time, human rights, anti-one child policy, forced abortions, religious persecution and a few more I can't recall at the moment. Those too impatient or not clever enough to cook up a con took to rusty ship way across the Pacific. US public sentiment forced the US government to grant instant refugees status to those faux refugees from Chinese persecution. They all heve the same well rehersed sob story if the media reports are anything to go by. But even dumb Americans cannot remain dumb forever. Mid ocean interception by USN units, isolation in Guam, and of course stateless limbo, put a stop to that. 9-11 helped. These living breathing examples of persecuted Chinese whose epic struggles against heroic odds to make it out of oppressive China to the West have been around for 30 years now. Tens of housands had escaped from prison China and found refuge in rich white countries. Surely by now one would have expected heart rendering Puliter Prize stories to have been published, to have articulate spokesmen and women who could give voice to their (masses of persecuted Chinese) common experiences. What about those heroes of Tiananmen Square who made it to the West? Given that the 80s to 90s was the peak you are a kind of behind the times in the smarts index. You know what Jeff? You are such a nice guy so concerned about the welfare of the oppressed. There's something you can do after all. Sponsor a Tibetan from Tibet and educate him or her. That person then becomes a productive member able to function in a modern society. That person can help his or her fellow Tibetans better than you will ever hope to do. Go for it. cheers....Jeff Double cheers to you too. |
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![]() "PaPaPeng" wrote in message ... On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 18:19:57 -0400, "Jeffrey Hamilton" wrote: Stop religious persecution http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/ Every day, thousands and thousands of people around the world quietly practice the prayer of Dorje Shugden. Never having heard of this *Western Shugden Society* before, I did a little googling. It appears this outfit is sponsered by the Peoples Republic of China. Merely a tactic to try and tarnish the DL. Neither have I heard of the Shugdens before this article. The commies don't play this kind of game - sponsor religious factions. First of all Beijing wouldn't know how to manipulate religious kooks. Secondly such schemes will explode in any manipulator's face. Well yes. They don't know how to do it. It does seem to be busy blowing up in their faces. This one is so transparently dodgy it's frightening. -- William Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. |
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