Cost to earn a glider certificate?

Jim Logajan wrote:
Anyone have a rough idea of the amount to budget to earn a glider
certificate?


You're a student for only a short period of your gliding career and in
many clubs, there is no additional charge for instruction. So, your real
question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to participate in soaring?".

That said, James's ball park estimate of US$2500 is probably a good
place to start.

Tony V. CFIG
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
. ..
... your real question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to participate in
soaring?".

Well said! Since much of soaring is done solo anyhow, and much of your
student flying is also solo, the cost to actually earn your certificate is not
terribly relevant. Flying is flying...certificate or not, and flying is a
wonderful thing.

Vaughn (CFIG)

"Vaughn Simon" wrote:
"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
. ..
... your real question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to
participate in soaring?".

Well said! Since much of soaring is done solo anyhow, and much of your
student flying is also solo, the cost to actually earn your
certificate is not terribly relevant. Flying is flying...certificate
or not, and flying is a wonderful thing.

Yes, I understand the training cost is just part of a continuum of ongoing
costs. But I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that I'll be doing more
flying in a short span of time than I would once I earn a certificate. So
it's a spike in discretionary spending that needs to be planned for.

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:36:27 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:

Yes, I understand the training cost is just part of a continuum of ongoing
costs. But I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that I'll be doing more
flying in a short span of time than I would once I earn a certificate. So
it's a spike in discretionary spending that needs to be planned for.

You may be surprised. I fly in the UK and learnt here, mainly on a winch,
but I think the pre-solo hours are similar to the typical US
aero-tow learning experience. The main difference is that winching
provides more, shorter flights with a considerably lower launch cost. A
side effect is that learning on the winch means you are likely to have
more landing practise because you will have done at least twice as many
launches and landings as an aero tow student by the time you solo.

But I digress: in my pre-solo year (6 months to solo flying weekends, then
a month in the club SZD Juniors before thermals stopped for the year)
I accumulated about 25 hours flying. For the next four years I averaged
around 70 hours per year and assumed that would be my norm. However the
last two years have really dropped that figure thanks to changed weather
patterns, last year I didn't quite touch 40 hours and this year looks
set to be worse. But then, we ARE a weather-dependent game.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

Think of it this way; except for the investment in your own glider, the
costs are about the same as playing golf.

The instruction part will be as much fun as the later solo-flying, well,
almost. And, as an investment, a glider depreciates less that most
anything you can buy. Most people regain their original purchase price
owing to inflation. Try that with a car or boat.

At 22:04 07 June 2008, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 13:36:27 -0500, Jim Logajan wrote:

Yes, I understand the training cost is just part of a continuum of
ongoing
costs. But I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that I'll be doing more

flying in a short span of time than I would once I earn a certificate.
So
it's a spike in discretionary spending that needs to be planned for.

You may be surprised. I fly in the UK and learnt here, mainly on a
winch,
but I think the pre-solo hours are similar to the typical US
aero-tow learning experience. The main difference is that winching
provides more, shorter flights with a considerably lower launch cost. A
side effect is that learning on the winch means you are likely to have
more landing practise because you will have done at least twice as many
launches and landings as an aero tow student by the time you solo.

But I digress: in my pre-solo year (6 months to solo flying weekends,
then
a month in the club SZD Juniors before thermals stopped for the year)
I accumulated about 25 hours flying. For the next four years I averaged
around 70 hours per year and assumed that would be my norm. However the
last two years have really dropped that figure thanks to changed weather
patterns, last year I didn't quite touch 40 hours and this year looks
set to be worse. But then, we ARE a weather-dependent game.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

In article "Vaughn Simon" writes:

"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
...
... your real question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to participate in
soaring?".

Well said! Since much of soaring is done solo anyhow, and much of your
student flying is also solo, the cost to actually earn your certificate is not
terribly relevant. Flying is flying...certificate or not, and flying is a
wonderful thing.

Vaughn (CFIG)

Much the same was true when I got my power license -- flying is flying.

However, now I wonder about what sort of flights to expect while getting
the rating -- how many useful flights and how many wasted ones? Does it really
take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo? What is covered in those, and how
can one take control of the process to make it more efficient?

How many more dual before "high solo", and how many more before the check ride?

How many of these flights actually get into lift and give a good learning period,
and how many are just a ride back down from release?

yes, I know, "ask the local group's instructors". I am asking here first so I
am better equipped to evaluate their answers when I do so.


Alan

There are no wasted flights; you can learn something from every one. No
two days are alike and the weather has to be figured out each day.

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

I had a student fly a two hour flight as his second flight after solo here
in the midwest. The next time he flew it was 16 minutes; he didn't sort
out the weather. You will have ups and downs in your whole career as a
glider pilot and that is what makes it interesting.

At 21:39 08 June 2008, Alan wrote:
In article "Vaughn Simon" writes:

"Tony Verhulst" wrote in message
m...
... your real question (IMHO) should be "what does it cost to
participate in
soaring?".

Well said! Since much of soaring is done solo anyhow, and much of
your
student flying is also solo, the cost to actually earn your certificate
is not
terribly relevant. Flying is flying...certificate or not, and flying
is
a
wonderful thing.

Vaughn (CFIG)

Much the same was true when I got my power license -- flying is
flying.

However, now I wonder about what sort of flights to expect while
getting
the rating -- how many useful flights and how many wasted ones? Does it
really
take 15 to 20 flights of dual before solo? What is covered in those,
and
how
can one take control of the process to make it more efficient?

How many more dual before "high solo", and how many more before the
check ride?

How many of these flights actually get into lift and give a good
learning period,
and how many are just a ride back down from release?

yes, I know, "ask the local group's instructors". I am asking here
first so I
am better equipped to evaluate their answers when I do so.


Alan

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
snip

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. The efficiency is to carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

snip

Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?

BT

On Jun 8, 4:48*pm, "BT" wrote:
"Nyal Williams" wrote in message

...

snip

That said, there are 17 things that have to be entered by an instructor
into your log book before it is legal to solo. *The efficiency is to carry
that list, post a flight number by the item covered, and wave the list in
front of your instructor to be sure all items are planned for ahead of
time.

snip

Nyal.. would you care to list all 17 items?

BT

The list of items is found in the Student Pilot section of the FAR
part 61.87(i) 1-19

(i) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a glider.
A student pilot who is receiving training for a glider rating or
privileges must receive and log flight training for the following
maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight
planning, preparation, aircraft systems, and, if appropriate,
powerplant operations;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups, if applicable;

(3) Launches, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions, if
applicable;

(5) Airport traffic patterns, including entry procedures;

(6) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(7) Descents with and without turns using high and low drag
configurations;

(8) Flight at various airspeeds;

(9) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(10) Ground reference maneuvers, if applicable;

(11) Inspection of towline rigging and review of signals and release
procedures, if applicable;

(12) Aerotow, ground tow, or self-launch procedures;

(13) Procedures for disassembly and assembly of the glider;

(14) Stall entry, stall, and stall recovery;

(15) Straight glides, turns, and spirals;

(16) Landings, including normal and crosswind;

(17) Slips to a landing;

(18) Procedures and techniques for thermalling; and

(19) Emergency operations, including towline break procedures.



Mike

There are two critically important things, in ensuring that your
training flights are not "wasted":

1) Your preparation. Prepare ahead of time. Most clubs are really
not that good at the ground-instruction side of things - so you have
to do a lot of the leg-work on this yourself. Be self-motivated, find
good books and DVDs on transitioning to gliders and learning to fly
gliders. Read / Watch them, and really try to absorb all the
knowledge from them that you can.

2) Your instructor(s). Many clubs have rotating duty cycles or
volunteer instructors that come out approximately "whenever they feel
like it" Their volunteerism is commendable, but it makes for a slower
training system because you will be repeating maneuvers to different
instructors (so that they confirm you know your stuff). Try to work
with just a few instructors - be respectful but aggressive in getting
just one or two scheduled to fly with you as much as possible. In my
club I flew with 6 (!!) instructors in my first few months; as a
result it took 20 flights to go solo (transitioning from PPL SEL) when
it should have taken 10. Once I *was* solo, none of the instructors
wanted to prep me for my ride. So I went to a commercial operation to
finish up and take my checkride, and got through in 3 days and only 7
or 8 flights (including my checkride flights).

Regarding flight length: Its hard to swallow this when you're eager
to soar - but thermalling and long flight times are NOT something to
aim for early on. Getting the instructor in the back seat, running
through the maneuvers (and getting comfortable with them) is the
hardest thing to schedule. More short flights is better than fewer
long ones - even if it costs a few $$ more for those extra tows.
Remember that once you're signed off to go solo, you can practice
thermalling and try to truly soar as much as you want (even before you
get your checkride)... With only a single person in the cockpit,
you'll also find that your glider will climb better and turn better -
so thermalling will be more enjoyable at that point, too!

Finally, one more tip: If you're computer-savvy, there's a great
flight simulator for soaring. Its called "Condor". It is best if you
have the basics of glider controls and aerotowing under your belt
before you try it, but once you're to the point where you want to
practice thermalling, cross-country flight, ridge-soaring, and other
advanced techniques, Condor is the way to go! But again, get
comfortable with gliding flight and towing first.

Take care,

--Noel
P.S. Sorry, there's one more thing some clubs are really bad at:
Teaching new members the non-soaring side of operations! Not only do
these duties help the club, but they help pass the time between
flights and help YOU be a better pilot (no joke!). Go out and have
someone teach you how to wing-run. You'll get to see a ton of
different take-off techniques over the course of a few hours (some of
which you may make a note to try - or avoid!); and you'll learn a lot
about safety on both ends of the line. Also, helping rig and pre-
flight other gliders (club and non-club) can be a great learning
experience. Be respectful of people's equipment and NEVER touch,
unless you're given permission. Seeing different equipment designs,
pre-flight techniques, assembly methods, and talking with other pilots
will help you learn things - some things you won't even realize you've
learned until later! One of the reasons we fly as "clubs" is because
gliding is really an all-day venture - there's a lot of value AND
enjoyment in the camaraderie and in being part of the entire operation
- not just getting "stick-time" and then going home... Have fun!