Mechanics of Elevator Trim. In Detail.

On Jun 9, 11:31*am, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:
On Jun 9, 1:06*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

I think if the book said more about how it worked, there would be no
misunderstanding.

I think if you walked up to an actual airplane there would be no
misunderstanding.

-Robert

On Jun 9, 6:19*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Jun 9, 11:31*am, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

On Jun 9, 1:06*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
I think if the book said more about how it worked, there would be no
misunderstanding.

I think if you walked up to an actual airplane there would be no
misunderstanding.

My first experience with trim control was neither with a book or a
plane, but with the instructor. I think there are a lot of things
that students are assumed to know that they do not, which can be
frustrating, as there is no difficult in the concepts, but the
ommission of facts, which hurts more than helps. It is the
instructor's choice to determine how deep s/he should delve into the
mechanics of flight.

One instructor might say, "Move trim wheel up or down to relieve
pressure on yoke."

Another might say, "Trim wheel is connected to a trim tab on elevator,
often located on one side of elevator only, and air moving across
elevator results in aerodynamic force vector on tab that acts on
elevator to position elevator so that point of equilibrium is reached,
and such force being sufficient that you no longer need the yoke to
position the elevator. As you can imagine, speed and orientation of
aircraft will have some effect on force...and therefore position of
elevator. Also, if only one tab, force applies asymetrically to
aircraft...etc."

Both these explanations are true, but one of them eliminates the need
for $30 product (or $30,000 aircraft) to know what is going on.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

On Jun 9, 8:18*pm, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

Both these explanations are true, but one of them eliminates the need
for $30 product (or $30,000 aircraft) to know what is going on.

I find that its pretty difficult to teach students to fly without the
aircraft.

-Robert, CFII

On Jun 9, 10:48*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Jun 9, 8:18*pm, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

Both these explanations are true, but one of them eliminates the need
for $30 product (or $30,000 aircraft) to know what is going on.

I find that its pretty difficult to teach students to fly without the
aircraft.

That brings us full-circle to a theme that was mildly explored in
another post - what utility, if any, is there in using a simulator to
learn things that do not require actual flying.

So here the question would be whether it is possible to understand how
a trim tab works without ever having flown an aircraft.

I have flown in DA-20 and Tomahawk, but I do not think actual flight
would have been necessary to understand how trim tab works.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

Le Chaud Lapin wrote in news:8675d961-0cdf-49a3-
:

On Jun 9, 10:48*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Jun 9, 8:18*pm, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

Both these explanations are true, but one of them eliminates the need
for $30 product (or $30,000 aircraft) to know what is going on.

I find that its pretty difficult to teach students to fly without the
aircraft.

That brings us full-circle to a theme that was mildly explored in
another post - what utility, if any, is there in using a simulator to
learn things that do not require actual flying.

So here the question would be whether it is possible to understand how
a trim tab works without ever having flown an aircraft.

I have flown in DA-20 and Tomahawk, but I do not think actual flight
would have been necessary to understand how trim tab works.

Which is an admission that you do not know how trim works.


Bertie

In article ,
Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

So here the question would be whether it is possible to understand how
a trim tab works without ever having flown an aircraft.

I have flown in DA-20 and Tomahawk, but I do not think actual flight
would have been necessary to understand how trim tab works.

Knowing how a trim tab works isn't necessary for flying. The pilot
needs to know is how to use trim.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

On Jun 10, 5:14*am, Bob Noel
wrote:
In article ,
*Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

So here the question would be whether it is possible to understand how
a trim tab works without ever having flown an aircraft.

I have flown in DA-20 and Tomahawk, but I do not think actual flight
would have been necessary to understand how trim tab works.

Knowing how a trim tab works isn't necessary for flying. *The pilot
needs to know is how to use trim.

It is not necessary to know how many things in aircraft work to be
able to fly, but knowing how they work doesn't hurt.

Otherwise companies like Jeppensen, FAA, etc, would not go through
trouble of making all those pretty diagrams (and exams to go with).

-Le Chaud Lapin-

"Le Chaud Lapin" wrote in message
...
On Jun 9, 10:48 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Jun 9, 8:18 pm, Le Chaud Lapin wrote:

Both these explanations are true, but one of them eliminates the need
for $30 product (or $30,000 aircraft) to know what is going on.

I find that its pretty difficult to teach students to fly without the
aircraft.

That brings us full-circle to a theme that was mildly explored in
another post - what utility, if any, is there in using a simulator to
learn things that do not require actual flying.

So here the question would be whether it is possible to understand how
a trim tab works without ever having flown an aircraft.

I have flown in DA-20 and Tomahawk, but I do not think actual flight
would have been necessary to understand how trim tab works.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

Well, it's been a long time since I flew a Tomahawk and I never flew the
DA-20, and my Tomahawk manual has gone AWOL; but I don't recall the Tomahawk
having a tab--IIRC, it had a spring system. That gives a different "feel"
and a different contribution to the feel of the primary controls; but there
should have been little motivation for MS to attempt to model those
subtleties--especially since the purchaser has choices in the physical
controls (yokes, etc.) attached to his computer.

Knowing how the systems work can be intellectually interesting for the
technically oriented; essential for designers, builders and mechanics; and
can easily save your life in the event of a systems failure in a real
aircraft. Therefore, most members of this group need to know the systems on
the aircraft they actually fly; but have no need for all of the possible
combinations and permutations.

The bottom line is that you are apparently part of the primary market for
MSFS and it gives you enjoyment. OTOH, most members of this group (who use
it at all) use it as a tool for procedure training, such as practicing
intercepts and approaches, and do so for efficiency rather than
entertainment.

Peter

On Jun 10, 9:32*am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:
Well, it's been a long time since I flew a Tomahawk and I never flew the
DA-20, and my Tomahawk manual has gone AWOL; but I don't recall the Tomahawk
having a tab--IIRC, it had a spring system. *That gives a different "feel"
and a different contribution to the feel of the primary controls; but there
should have been little motivation for MS to attempt to model those
subtleties--especially since the purchaser has choices in the physical
controls (yokes, etc.) attached to his computer.

Knowing how the systems work can be intellectually interesting for the
technically oriented; essential for designers, builders and mechanics; and
can easily save your life in the event of a systems failure in a real
aircraft. *Therefore, most members of this group need to know the systems on
the aircraft they actually fly; but have no need for all of the possible
combinations and permutations.

My OP did not mention anything about combinations and permutations.
It was asked in general, and then just for C172, as an example.

The bottom line is that you are apparently part of the primary market for
MSFS and it gives you enjoyment. *OTOH, most members of this group (who use
it at all) use it as a tool for procedure training, such as practicing
intercepts and approaches, and do so for efficiency rather than
entertainment.

Yes, I do enjoy understanding things, but my primary motivation is
efficiency of savings.

It was a lot cheaper to check my understanding of how trim tab works
using a simulator than it was to drive 40km out to airport and fiddle
with a real plane.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

"Le Chaud Lapin" wrote in message
news:9483664d-6897-4777-b4d4-

Another might say, "Trim wheel is connected to a trim tab on elevator,
often located on one side of elevator only, and air moving across
elevator results in aerodynamic force vector on tab that acts on
elevator to position elevator so that point of equilibrium is reached,
and such force being sufficient that you no longer need the yoke to
position the elevator. As you can imagine, speed and orientation of
aircraft will have some effect on force...and therefore position of
elevator. Also, if only one tab, force applies asymetrically to
aircraft...etc."


I'm glad I wasn't there the day he introduced the radio.