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Mayday in Utah



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 19th 08, 03:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
5Z
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Posts: 405
Default Mayday in Utah

On Jun 19, 2:33*am, Ian wrote:
That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.


You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????

-Tom
  #2  
Old June 19th 08, 05:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chris Reed[_2_]
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Posts: 56
Default Mayday in Utah

5Z wrote:
You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????

PAN PAN in Europe, which would have the desired effect. I've heard this
is not fully recognised in the US - true or not?
  #3  
Old June 19th 08, 05:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jcarlyle
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Posts: 522
Default Mayday in Utah

According to the FAA's 2008 Aeronautical Information Manual Chapter 6
Section 3, Mayday is to be used for Distress situations, and Pan-Pan
is to be used for Urgency situations: See
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...6/aim0603.html
for further details.

-John

Chris Reed wrote:
PAN PAN in Europe, which would have the desired effect. I've heard this
is not fully recognised in the US - true or not?

  #4  
Old June 20th 08, 12:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott[_7_]
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Posts: 256
Default Mayday in Utah

jcarlyle wrote:

According to the FAA's 2008 Aeronautical Information Manual Chapter 6
Section 3, Mayday is to be used for Distress situations, and Pan-Pan
is to be used for Urgency situations: See
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...6/aim0603.html
for further details.

-John

Chris Reed wrote:

PAN PAN in Europe, which would have the desired effect. I've heard this
is not fully recognised in the US - true or not?


Thanks for the link...this is what I was looking for to help answer the
question...

Scott
  #5  
Old June 19th 08, 05:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce
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Posts: 174
Default Mayday in Utah

Hi Tom

This is RAS - so the advice is only guaranteed to be worth every cent you pay, but here is my opinion for what it is worth.

I believe the adage is Aviate, navigate, communicate (My corollary is - and know the consequences.)

Having aviated into a hazardous situation - however we got there, the thing to do is to fly the aeroplane, to as safe a
location as possible under the circumstances (minimise the risk of damage and injury), and communicate the situation
(location and risk of damage or injury) as clearly as possible.
Part of mitigating risk to yourself and others is to ensure the people at your home airfield and or SAR know where you
are, and what your intentions are. The cost and risks associated with a large scale search when there is limited
information available is much higher.

So -


You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????


My call is -
PAN PAN "... I have the following situation."

But my understanding is that the controllers / SAR / contest directors would like to know the situation whatever you
call it- as long as you explain the situation. If you mistakenly use "Mayday", the person you are talking to "should"
ask if you really want to declare an emergency.
Then remember to tell the same people once you are down what the new (hopefully - "no problem") situation is.

Even in remote areas you may be able to relay via an airliner - who should be listening for your call if you made a PAN
announcement.

If they don't hear from you cancelling the PAN (Possible Assistance Needed )call all the expensive stuff will start on
the assumption that it is no longer a possible, but an actual "assistance needed" situation - but you won't be on the
hook for futile expenses.

I you cry wolf - You will, of course, aggravate a lot of people you might really want on your side in a real emergency.
And they will bill you.

Communicating anything can save a lot of aggravation - Consider the contest pilot who got too busy to call landing out
in the middle of nowhere on a contest day that developed massive storm fronts. Last contact on the radio was around two
hours before eventual landing. That is a lot of ground for a modern 18m ship.
On the ground , he had no cell reception, deserted farmhouses and too little radio range (flat battery) to reach anyone.
Having lost track of exactly where he was in the excitement he was unaware/unsure of how to reach the nearest town which
was 13km away. Out of options and ideas he slept uncomfortably in the cockpit while the storm blew itself out - which is
more than can be said for a lot of others who spent much of the night up and arranging a search at dawn. Then seven
aircraft started a grid search, with most burning two hours of tach time by the time the aircraft was located, and they
got back home. Then the issue of cost comes up...

The take away from that one for me was - have decent battery endurance available, and try to have two cellular phones so
that you may be able to get alternative comms working. The field we found him in had reasonable cellular coverage by the
alternative network, not his service provider. Could/should have been a simple retrieve.

Sometimes abuse is preferable to non-use.

5Z wrote:
On Jun 19, 2:33 am, Ian wrote:
That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.


You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????

-Tom

  #6  
Old June 20th 08, 03:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ian
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Posts: 306
Default Mayday in Utah

On 19 Jun, 17:58, Bruce wrote:

If they don't hear from you cancelling the PAN (Possible Assistance Needed )call all the expensive stuff will start on
the assumption that it is no longer a possible, but an actual "assistance needed" situation - but you won't be on the
hook for futile expenses.



That's what will happen if you make a pan-pan call before descending
to a height where you can't cancel it.

Ian
  #7  
Old June 21st 08, 06:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce
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Posts: 174
Default Mayday in Utah

Hi Ian

Agree - best option is to just tell people what you are doing. No need to call pan or mayday - just give them the facts.
Then at least they know where to start looking if you don't call in.

In this instance I think the pilot had reason to believe he might not make a safe landing. In which case PAN is
justified. As I said, just remember the consequences part - including costs of search and rescue. And that there is risk
to those who go searching too.

Bruce

Ian wrote:
On 19 Jun, 17:58, Bruce wrote:

If they don't hear from you cancelling the PAN (Possible Assistance Needed )call all the expensive stuff will start on
the assumption that it is no longer a possible, but an actual "assistance needed" situation - but you won't be on the
hook for futile expenses.



That's what will happen if you make a pan-pan call before descending
to a height where you can't cancel it.

Ian

  #8  
Old June 20th 08, 12:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott[_7_]
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Posts: 256
Default Mayday in Utah

5Z wrote:

On Jun 19, 2:33 am, Ian wrote:

That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.



You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????

-Tom

"Any station, any station, Glider 1234 Alpha (use your ship's callsign),
I have a situation...I'm at (lat/Long, near town X, over the shopping
mall,, etc.) describe problem and ask if they can assist in a specific
manner (call flight service, call so and so on a cellphone, etc.)"

Chances are that even if you are on or near the ground, someone will
hear you on 121.5. Airliners are required (If I recall) to monitor
while in flight. From 5 miles up they should have a pretty good range.

Scott

  #9  
Old June 20th 08, 03:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ian
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Posts: 306
Default Mayday in Utah

On 19 Jun, 15:48, 5Z wrote:
On Jun 19, 2:33 am, Ian wrote:

That would be a gross misuse - an abuse - of the MAYDAY call. You are
NOT supposed to use it on the off chance that something might go wrong
later.


You're in a remote area, you're high enough to make a radio call, but
don't know how much lower you can be and still communicate, so you
want to notify *someone* of your predicament.

So you tune 121.5 and say...????


An interesting question, particularly if you can't confirm that you're
OK (or not) after landing. However, since you are not in any immediate
danger, neither mayday nor pan-pan would be appropriate. On the whole
you are probably best to keep quiet and activate your emergency
locator if necessary.

Ian
  #10  
Old June 23rd 08, 07:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jack[_1_]
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Posts: 82
Default Mayday in Utah

Ian wrote:


...since you are not in any immediate danger, neither mayday
nor pan-pan would be appropriate. On the whole you are
probably best to keep quiet and activate your emergency
locator if necessary.



This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard on this or any other
aviation list.

Let's encourage people to know their options, to "aviate, navigate, and
communicate." Being quiet about the situation while counting on your
emergency locator to activate, or your post-landing ability to activate
it, is not recommended. Any difference of opinion regarding radio
terminology is trivial compared to the decision to use the radio to
communicate your circumstances in the first place, and in a timely manner.



Jack
 




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