How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:26:06 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:42:12 -0700 (PDT), Richard Riley
wrote in
:

On Jun 16, 7:37 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:
How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel

The motor is powered by a 78 pound, custom-built lithium-ion polymer
battery with a power output of "5.6 kilowatt hours"; projected life is
300 to 500 full discharge cycles or more than 1,000 partial cycles.
The battery can be recharged in as little as two hours using a
220-volt charger (or six hours with a 110-volt charger). The cost for
a full recharge is 70 cents with the 110-volt charger. Fishman says
it's feasible to carry a small 110-volt charger as baggage on
cross-country flights.

1 horsepower = .75kw. So 5.6 kilowatt hours is only 7.51 horsepower
hours. Good enough for a short burst to get you to altitude and soar
the thermals, bu you aren't going anywhere cross country.

I would say that depends on how much power the aircraft requires for
sustained level flight. If that can be achieved on 5 hp, the battery
will theoretically provide 1.5 hours run time (assuming 100%
efficiency).

Compare it to a really inefficient 2 stroke, burning .6 lb/hp-hr.
Your battery is equal to .75 gallons of gas.

What is the difference in cost between that amount of fuel and the
cost to charger the battery? Noise? Vibration? Reliability? ...

I give Mr. Fishman credit for the success his project has achieved to
date considering its funding and staff.

Larry
the technology does have a way to go.
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.
when the boy's efforts can achieve that he'll have a market.
I'd suggest not before.

he is on one of the right tracks though. we need a carbon free fuel
into the future and that means hydrogen or electrons at the moment.
Stealth Pilot

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message ...

he is on one of the right tracks though. we need a carbon free fuel
into the future and that means hydrogen or electrons at the moment.
Stealth Pilot

This, or similar, is key to flying 'green':
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...80403a_nr.html

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.

Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:


"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
.. .
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.

Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn


Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:


"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
.. .
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.

Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn


Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.

Yeah, right.

The typical car battery pack costs about $3k to $5k, do you think an
airplane battery pack will be cheaper?

How many battery packs do you think the typical FBO is going to be able
to buy?

The best of batteries only last about 5 years, so every 5 years or
so the FBO has to replace all those batteries.

Real economic winner there.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.
Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn


Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.

Yeah, right.

The typical car battery pack costs about $3k to $5k, do you think an
airplane battery pack will be cheaper?

How many battery packs do you think the typical FBO is going to be able
to buy?

The best of batteries only last about 5 years, so every 5 years or
so the FBO has to replace all those batteries.

Real economic winner there.




Actually, the cost of replacing the battery packs (after five years)
will run around $5000.00. That's $1000.00 a year plus the cost for
multiple recharges @$.60 per charge... If you put 100 hours on the old
"Hobbs" every year that's the equivalent of paying about $10.30 an hour
for fuel... What's a gallon of 100/130 down your way?? Then there's
the savings on maintenance... The prop is a composite material with no
time life. The "engine" (electric motor) doesn't have a TBO rating.
When you factor all the costs of operating a typical two place single
(like a Cessna 152), a $5000.00 battery pack is "peanuts". What's more,
if you put more time on the machine and use a trickle charger which
won't stress the battery, your operating cost will only increase by the
number of charges (@ $.60 per)... So let's say you "double" the number
of hours in the air... The "fuel" cost factored over 200 hours now
drops to $5.30 an hour. Yikes!!! :-)

Frank Olson wrote:
wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:

"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.
Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn


Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.

Yeah, right.

The typical car battery pack costs about $3k to $5k, do you think an
airplane battery pack will be cheaper?

How many battery packs do you think the typical FBO is going to be able
to buy?

The best of batteries only last about 5 years, so every 5 years or
so the FBO has to replace all those batteries.

Real economic winner there.




Actually, the cost of replacing the battery packs (after five years)
will run around $5000.00.

Since car packs are $3k to $5k, what makes you think an airplane rated
pack will be the same price?


That's $1000.00 a year plus the cost for
multiple recharges @$.60 per charge... If you put 100 hours on the old
"Hobbs" every year that's the equivalent of paying about $10.30 an hour
for fuel... What's a gallon of 100/130 down your way??

Except you pay for fuel on a continuous basis over time.

You have to buy and pay for the batteries in one lump, right now.

Oh, sure, you could take out a loan and spread the payments over 5 years,
but now you've added interest on the loan to the cost of the batteries.

Then there's
the savings on maintenance... The prop is a composite material with no
time life.

Irrelevant.

Composite props already exist and are already used on conventional
gas engines.

The "engine" (electric motor) doesn't have a TBO rating.

Nonsense, an electric motor has a life limit. It may turn out to be
longer than a gas engine, but that is unknown at this time.

When you factor all the costs of operating a typical two place single
(like a Cessna 152), a $5000.00 battery pack is "peanuts".

Do you pay no attention to what you write?

You were talking about FBO's and having swap out battery packs to keep
the airplanes in the air.

So it isn't A $5000 battery pack, it is 3 or 4 $5000 battery packs.

What's more,
if you put more time on the machine and use a trickle charger which
won't stress the battery, your operating cost will only increase by the
number of charges (@ $.60 per)...

And using a trickle charger means you need even more battery packs at
$5000 per copy to keep the airplanes flying.

So let's say you "double" the number
of hours in the air... The "fuel" cost factored over 200 hours now
drops to $5.30 an hour. Yikes!!! :-)

Yikes!!! indeed.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

schrieb:
You have to buy and pay for the batteries in one lump, right now.

Oh, sure, you could take out a loan and spread the payments over 5 years,
but now you've added interest on the loan to the cost of the batteries.


you always have to calculate capitalisation. oh well.

#m

On Jun 22, 2:35*pm, wrote:

You have to buy and pay for the batteries in one lump, right now.


I read somewhere that the companies that are working on battery packs
for "Pluggable Hybrid" cars are considering leasing them. Perhaps that
will be an option for aviation batteries as well (if and when they
become available).

Dave

wrote:
Frank Olson wrote:
wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:52:16 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote in
:
"Stealth Pilot" wrote in message
...
my tailwind requires 74hp to cruise at 120 knots.
it takes me two days to fly across australia.
Of course, the typical light airplane flight probably does not even involve
X-country flight. A 2-hour electric airplane would be just fine for the typical
1 to 1.5 hour training mission. Of course, that same plane would need to be
ready to fly the next training student/renter within 20 or 30 minutes. Given
what we know about today's battery technology, time required for recharging may
be a big problem.

Vaughn

Fortunately, in that service multiple battery packs could be used to
overcome down time due to recharging.
Yeah, right.

The typical car battery pack costs about $3k to $5k, do you think an
airplane battery pack will be cheaper?

How many battery packs do you think the typical FBO is going to be able
to buy?

The best of batteries only last about 5 years, so every 5 years or
so the FBO has to replace all those batteries.

Real economic winner there.




Actually, the cost of replacing the battery packs (after five years)
will run around $5000.00.

Since car packs are $3k to $5k, what makes you think an airplane rated
pack will be the same price?

Look at their website... http://www.electraflyer.com/prices.html.
Heck... even their most expensive battery pack is "peanuts" compared to
the price you're going to pay for fuel for five years...





That's $1000.00 a year plus the cost for
multiple recharges @$.60 per charge... If you put 100 hours on the old
"Hobbs" every year that's the equivalent of paying about $10.30 an hour
for fuel... What's a gallon of 100/130 down your way??

Except you pay for fuel on a continuous basis over time.

What's your fuel consumption now?? It's not going to change over five
years (unless you upgrade to a bigger plane)... What *is* going to
change is the cost per gallon.



You have to buy and pay for the batteries in one lump, right now.

Everyone that owns an aircraft knows how to budget. "Lump sum" payments
like propeller overhauls, engine overhauls... I set aside the dollars
for all these items for every hour I put on the Hobbs... Don't you??
Mind you I fly a medium twin (Piper Aerostar) and I don't like "lump
sum" payments anymore than you do.



Oh, sure, you could take out a loan and spread the payments over 5 years,
but now you've added interest on the loan to the cost of the batteries.

What loan?? You buy the batteries with the aircraft. You budget for
replacement five years down the road (and add about 10 - 20 percent for
"contingencies")



Then there's
the savings on maintenance... The prop is a composite material with no
time life.

Irrelevant.

It isn't when you factor in a contingency for something like a rock or
bird strike...



Composite props already exist and are already used on conventional
gas engines.

Heh... Not on any of the conventional aircraft I've flown. I split my
time between a Cessna 185 on amphib floats and a Piper Aerostar.



The "engine" (electric motor) doesn't have a TBO rating.

Nonsense, an electric motor has a life limit. It may turn out to be
longer than a gas engine, but that is unknown at this time.

Correct... There hasn't been a "TBO" set yet... So let's factor in
that cost as well... An electric motor is a pretty simple device
compared to even a normally aspirated IO-540...



When you factor all the costs of operating a typical two place single
(like a Cessna 152), a $5000.00 battery pack is "peanuts".

Do you pay no attention to what you write?

I try to keep things simple. We were comparing the cost of fuel. I
threw in the other stuff to make a point. The cost your FBO is going to
charge on maintaining an electric motor over a reciprocating engine is
going to be "peanuts".



You were talking about FBO's and having swap out battery packs to keep
the airplanes in the air.

Swapping the battery pack looks like something even my grand daughter
will be able to do... in a few years. :-)



So it isn't A $5000 battery pack, it is 3 or 4 $5000 battery packs.

Nope. It's "one" battery pack...



What's more,
if you put more time on the machine and use a trickle charger which
won't stress the battery, your operating cost will only increase by the
number of charges (@ $.60 per)...

And using a trickle charger means you need even more battery packs at
$5000 per copy to keep the airplanes flying.

Huh?? You use a trickle charge to maintain the charge on the battery
(between uses), not to say... go cross country with the aircraft.



So let's say you "double" the number
of hours in the air... The "fuel" cost factored over 200 hours now
drops to $5.30 an hour. Yikes!!! :-)

Yikes!!! indeed.

And all the little birdies sing "cheap, cheap, cheap!" :-)