Best dogfight gun?

Actually, the Hog does, if it knows what direction the other guy is
coming from.

Turn into the oncoming fighter, and open fire from a mile or so further
out...

I have been setting up some scenaries with the LO-MAC "Lock On- Modern Air
Combat" Sim/Game,
involving A-10s vs Su27/33, and it often is not too pretty for the Su's in a
head on merge..The A-10s gun does a good job of reaching out and touching
someone But if the Su survives that, then the A-10 is at a bad
disadvantage.

Yes I know it is a sim/gam..But it is sure fun to set up and watch.


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

I have been setting up some scenaries with the LO-MAC "Lock On- Modern Air
Combat" Sim/Game,
involving A-10s vs Su27/33, and it often is not too pretty for the Su's in
a
head on merge..The A-10s gun does a good job of reaching out and touching
someone But if the Su survives that, then the A-10 is at a bad
disadvantage.

I have to get that game myself, but it brings up an important point.
What are the avionics behind the gun? I'd imagine that an A-10 would lack
an accurate a-a mode for aiming its gun. The same thing applies to the
other guns mentioned in the debate. A gun's merits are important, but they
don't mean squat if it's impossible to hit anything with it! The
laser-rangefinders on the latest Russian jets (e.g., Su-27 series, Mig-29
too I believe) stand out as an excellent example of using superior avionics
to make a gun more effective. Anything similar on the Rafale, Grippen,
Raptor?

Tony

"Tony Volk" wrote in message ...
I have been setting up some scenaries with the LO-MAC "Lock On- Modern Air
Combat" Sim/Game,
involving A-10s vs Su27/33, and it often is not too pretty for the Su's in
a
head on merge..The A-10s gun does a good job of reaching out and touching
someone But if the Su survives that, then the A-10 is at a bad
disadvantage.

I have to get that game myself, but it brings up an important point.
What are the avionics behind the gun? I'd imagine that an A-10 would lack
an accurate a-a mode for aiming its gun. The same thing applies to the
other guns mentioned in the debate. A gun's merits are important, but they
don't mean squat if it's impossible to hit anything with it! The
laser-rangefinders on the latest Russian jets (e.g., Su-27 series, Mig-29
too I believe) stand out as an excellent example of using superior avionics
to make a gun more effective. Anything similar on the Rafale, Grippen,
Raptor?

I understand that the SAAB Viggen armed with Oerlikon KCA has an
'AutoAim' system which effectively takes over the autopilot and aims
the plane at the designated target to ensure that the gun is properly
aimed. This enables engagement at up to 3,000m in a head-on attack.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

On 8 Dec 2003 03:59:15 -0800, (Tony
Williams) wrote:

"Tony Volk" wrote in message ...
I have been setting up some scenaries with the LO-MAC "Lock On- Modern Air
Combat" Sim/Game,
involving A-10s vs Su27/33, and it often is not too pretty for the Su's in
a
head on merge..The A-10s gun does a good job of reaching out and touching
someone But if the Su survives that, then the A-10 is at a bad
disadvantage.

I have to get that game myself, but it brings up an important point.
What are the avionics behind the gun? I'd imagine that an A-10 would lack
an accurate a-a mode for aiming its gun. The same thing applies to the
other guns mentioned in the debate. A gun's merits are important, but they
don't mean squat if it's impossible to hit anything with it! The
laser-rangefinders on the latest Russian jets (e.g., Su-27 series, Mig-29
too I believe) stand out as an excellent example of using superior avionics
to make a gun more effective. Anything similar on the Rafale, Grippen,
Raptor?

I understand that the SAAB Viggen armed with Oerlikon KCA has an
'AutoAim' system which effectively takes over the autopilot and aims
the plane at the designated target to ensure that the gun is properly
aimed. This enables engagement at up to 3,000m in a head-on attack.


From what I've read (albeit it was years ago) the KCA hits damn near
as hard as the GAU-8. It just doesn't have the rate of fire.

Scott Ferrin wrote in message . ..
On 8 Dec 2003 03:59:15 -0800, (Tony
Williams) wrote:

"Tony Volk" wrote in message ...
I have been setting up some scenaries with the LO-MAC "Lock On- Modern Air
Combat" Sim/Game,
involving A-10s vs Su27/33, and it often is not too pretty for the Su's in
a
head on merge..The A-10s gun does a good job of reaching out and touching
someone But if the Su survives that, then the A-10 is at a bad
disadvantage.

I have to get that game myself, but it brings up an important point.
What are the avionics behind the gun? I'd imagine that an A-10 would lack
an accurate a-a mode for aiming its gun. The same thing applies to the
other guns mentioned in the debate. A gun's merits are important, but they
don't mean squat if it's impossible to hit anything with it! The
laser-rangefinders on the latest Russian jets (e.g., Su-27 series, Mig-29
too I believe) stand out as an excellent example of using superior avionics
to make a gun more effective. Anything similar on the Rafale, Grippen,
Raptor?

I understand that the SAAB Viggen armed with Oerlikon KCA has an
'AutoAim' system which effectively takes over the autopilot and aims
the plane at the designated target to ensure that the gun is properly
aimed. This enables engagement at up to 3,000m in a head-on attack.


From what I've read (albeit it was years ago) the KCA hits damn near
as hard as the GAU-8. It just doesn't have the rate of fire.

The 30x173 cartridge for the GAU-8/A was actually 'borrowed' from the
KCA, the most obvious difference being that the KCA's ammo is
steel-cased rather than aluminium alloy. The power of the HE rounds is
exactly the same. The KCA was adopted by the USA as the GAU-9/A, in
case the 8A failed (the A-10 would have had two KCAs).

As I've posted elsewhere on this thread, as well as the podded
four-barrel GAU-13/A version of the GAU-8/A, a lightweight
three-barrel CHAG version in 30x173 was also produced, firing at 2,000
rpm. That would have been interesting....

It's worth noting that the current Russian 30x165 ammo isn't that much
less powerful than the 30x173, and they do make a six-barrel rotary,
the GSh-6-30, which fires at 5,000 rpm and weighs only 160kg (M61 =
114 kg, GAU-8/A = 281 kg). If you really want bang for your buck, you
can't do much better than that, but the Russians only ever fitted it
to the MiG-27 for ground-attack.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

As I've posted elsewhere on this thread, as well as the podded
four-barrel GAU-13/A version of the GAU-8/A,

I saw a picture once of the original Strike Eagle with three of those
babies on it. :-)




a lightweight
three-barrel CHAG version in 30x173 was also produced, firing at 2,000
rpm. That would have been interesting....

It's worth noting that the current Russian 30x165 ammo isn't that much
less powerful than the 30x173, and they do make a six-barrel rotary,
the GSh-6-30, which fires at 5,000 rpm and weighs only 160kg (M61 =
114 kg, GAU-8/A = 281 kg). If you really want bang for your buck, you
can't do much better than that, but the Russians only ever fitted it
to the MiG-27 for ground-attack.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Wrongo. Mig-27 has elevation-movable GSh-6-23 that uses 23mm ammo (same ammo
of twin-barrel GSh-23 used on MiG-21, 23...) and fires around 7,000-8,000
RPM. The same gun is installed into MiG-31 for AA, carried internally and
deployed on a movable gun-bay when used. What is interesting about this gun
is that it is, although Gatling-type gun, it is gas-operated (don't ask me
how!) and therefore so light. On trials it achieved some 10,000 RPM (!!!)
but it is tuned-down for practical use on MiG-27 and MiG-31.

The -other- Russian gatling gun GSh-6-30 You were talking about is not in
use yet (at least I do not know which aircraft carries it)

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

Tony Williams wrote in message ...

The 30x173 cartridge for the GAU-8/A was actually 'borrowed' from the
KCA, the most obvious difference being that the KCA's ammo is
steel-cased rather than aluminium alloy. The power of the HE rounds is
exactly the same. The KCA was adopted by the USA as the GAU-9/A, in
case the 8A failed (the A-10 would have had two KCAs).

As I've posted elsewhere on this thread, as well as the podded
four-barrel GAU-13/A version of the GAU-8/A, a lightweight
three-barrel CHAG version in 30x173 was also produced, firing at 2,000
rpm. That would have been interesting....

It's worth noting that the current Russian 30x165 ammo isn't that much
less powerful than the 30x173, and they do make a six-barrel rotary,
the GSh-6-30, which fires at 5,000 rpm and weighs only 160kg (M61 =
114 kg, GAU-8/A = 281 kg). If you really want bang for your buck, you
can't do much better than that, but the Russians only ever fitted it
to the MiG-27 for ground-attack.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

The same gun is installed into MiG-31 for AA

Talk about optimism!


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

"Nele VII" wrote:

The -other- Russian gatling gun GSh-6-30 You were talking about is not in
use yet (at least I do not know which aircraft carries it)

I saw some references to the MiG-27 using the -30...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In article ,
"Nele VII" wrote:

Wrongo. Mig-27 has elevation-movable GSh-6-23 that uses 23mm ammo (same ammo
of twin-barrel GSh-23 used on MiG-21, 23...) and fires around 7,000-8,000
RPM. The same gun is installed into MiG-31 for AA, carried internally and
deployed on a movable gun-bay when used. What is interesting about this gun
is that it is, although Gatling-type gun, it is gas-operated (don't ask me
how!) and therefore so light. On trials it achieved some 10,000 RPM (!!!)
but it is tuned-down for practical use on MiG-27 and MiG-31.

The only problem is that the GSh-6-23 is *heavy*, running almost 200 kg,
and on the MiG-31 it only has 260 rounds... giving it about two seconds
of full-rate (7000 per minute) firing.

Other than that, it seems like a heckuva scary piece of iron.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.