Best dogfight gun?

Wrongo. Mig-27 has elevation-movable GSh-6-23 that uses 23mm ammo (same ammo
of twin-barrel GSh-23 used on MiG-21, 23...) and fires around 7,000-8,000
RPM. The same gun is installed into MiG-31 for AA, carried internally and
deployed on a movable gun-bay when used. What is interesting about this gun
is that it is, although Gatling-type gun, it is gas-operated (don't ask me
how!) and therefore so light. On trials it achieved some 10,000 RPM (!!!)
but it is tuned-down for practical use on MiG-27 and MiG-31.

The -other- Russian gatling gun GSh-6-30 You were talking about is not in
use yet (at least I do not know which aircraft carries it)

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

Tony Williams wrote in message ...

The 30x173 cartridge for the GAU-8/A was actually 'borrowed' from the
KCA, the most obvious difference being that the KCA's ammo is
steel-cased rather than aluminium alloy. The power of the HE rounds is
exactly the same. The KCA was adopted by the USA as the GAU-9/A, in
case the 8A failed (the A-10 would have had two KCAs).

As I've posted elsewhere on this thread, as well as the podded
four-barrel GAU-13/A version of the GAU-8/A, a lightweight
three-barrel CHAG version in 30x173 was also produced, firing at 2,000
rpm. That would have been interesting....

It's worth noting that the current Russian 30x165 ammo isn't that much
less powerful than the 30x173, and they do make a six-barrel rotary,
the GSh-6-30, which fires at 5,000 rpm and weighs only 160kg (M61 =
114 kg, GAU-8/A = 281 kg). If you really want bang for your buck, you
can't do much better than that, but the Russians only ever fitted it
to the MiG-27 for ground-attack.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

The same gun is installed into MiG-31 for AA

Talk about optimism!


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

"Nele VII" wrote:

The -other- Russian gatling gun GSh-6-30 You were talking about is not in
use yet (at least I do not know which aircraft carries it)

I saw some references to the MiG-27 using the -30...

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No. My sources are, among others is website "Russian Aviation Museum",
Article from Military Parade July-August '97, Salamander book "MiGs" with a
nice photo of the gun, from what is obvious it is(they are) 23, NOT 30mm
barrel(s).

-30 is the newer gun that belongs to -30mm "family" that includes
single-barrel GSh-301 (MiG-29/Su27), single-barrel 2A42 (choppers) double
barrel GSh 30 (Su-25) and 30K, six barrel GSh-6-30...

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

Chad Irby wrote in message ...
"Nele VII" wrote:

The -other- Russian gatling gun GSh-6-30 You were talking about is not
in
use yet (at least I do not know which aircraft carries it)

I saw some references to the MiG-27 using the -30...

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Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Nele VII" wrote:

(Top posting repaired)

Chad Irby wrote in message ...
"Nele VII" wrote:

The -other- Russian gatling gun GSh-6-30 You were talking about
is not in use yet (at least I do not know which aircraft carries
it)

I saw some references to the MiG-27 using the -30...

No. My sources are, among others is website "Russian Aviation Museum",
Article from Military Parade July-August '97, Salamander book "MiGs" with a
nice photo of the gun, from what is obvious it is(they are) 23, NOT 30mm
barrel(s).

....from a six year old article.

Meanwhile, the *current* FAS site mentions the -30 in the MiG.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mig-27.htm

....along with:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/mig27-01.htm

And others.

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"Nele VII" wrote in message ...
No. My sources are, among others is website "Russian Aviation Museum",
Article from Military Parade July-August '97, Salamander book "MiGs" with a
nice photo of the gun, from what is obvious it is(they are) 23, NOT 30mm
barrel(s).

-30 is the newer gun that belongs to -30mm "family" that includes
single-barrel GSh-301 (MiG-29/Su27), single-barrel 2A42 (choppers) double
barrel GSh 30 (Su-25) and 30K, six barrel GSh-6-30...

Sorry, but I must disagree with you. It may be that some MiG-27s were
fitted with the GSh-6-23, but the GSh-6-30 is the more common fit.
This is from 'Flying Guns: the Modern Era':

"Later the USSR decided that the MiG-23 fighter would be a good basis
for a modern Shturmovik, and ordered a dedicated attack development
that was designated MiG 27. After some debate, supersonic performance
was retained, to enable the aircraft to get in and out of the fighting
area quickly, but the engine installation was considerably simplified.
The MiG 27 had a flat "duck nose" with navigation and attack systems
instead of fighter radar. The lower nose allowed redesign of the
cockpit, with a much better forward and downward view and armour to
protect the pilot. The aircraft also received a system that
pressurised the fuel tanks with inert gas, and stronger landing gear
for rough-field operations. The GSh-6-30 cannon was installed instead
of the GSh-23L.

The MiG-27 is the sole confirmed carrier of the GSh-6-30 (although
there are reports that it has been fitted to some versions of the
MiG-31 and Su-25), a six-barrel rotary gun firing the powerful 30x165
cartridge at up to 5,000 rpm. The vibration and recoil of this potent
weapon caused MiG considerable installation problems. Only 265 rounds
are carried, limiting the firing time to 3.2 seconds. The gun was at
first left totally exposed, but on the MiG 27M later the breech was
given a cover to protect it from debris thrown up by the tires, and
gas deflector vanes were added. On the wing SPPU-22-01 gun pods, with
guns that can be depressed for ground strafing, can be carried."

Incidentally, I don't know where the figure of 200 kg for the GSh-6-23
came from - possibly for the whole installation, but the gun weighs
only around 75 kg. Even the GSh-6-30 weighs only 160kg as a bare gun.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

Tony Williams wrote in message ...

Sorry, but I must disagree with you. It may be that some MiG-27s were
fitted with the GSh-6-23, but the GSh-6-30 is the more common fit.
This is from 'Flying Guns: the Modern Era':
lots of good stuff snipped

I have nothig to say but to agree with You and Mr. Gustin. I have been on
Indian military site and they also state GSh-6-30 -only one correction-it is
6,000 RPM, not 5,000 (they were licence-building MiG-27M, so I assume they
know better). However, I have also read about problems with the MiG-27 gun
installation (vibrations!), but that gun was GSh-6-23 (sorry I cannot give
reference, the link is dead). I assume that they've tried '23 gun first,
went on short production, but discarded it for more 'docile' 30 mm gun.

GSh-6-23 is installed in Su-24 Fencer and MiG-31. I am surprised that such a
light and powerful gun was not installed in other figters. Its construction
is ingenious-it requires no external power source (gas-operated!), fires
10-12,000RPM (which probably can be reduced) and have a good ammunition.

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

In article ,
"Nele VII" wrote:

Wrongo. Mig-27 has elevation-movable GSh-6-23 that uses 23mm ammo (same ammo
of twin-barrel GSh-23 used on MiG-21, 23...) and fires around 7,000-8,000
RPM. The same gun is installed into MiG-31 for AA, carried internally and
deployed on a movable gun-bay when used. What is interesting about this gun
is that it is, although Gatling-type gun, it is gas-operated (don't ask me
how!) and therefore so light. On trials it achieved some 10,000 RPM (!!!)
but it is tuned-down for practical use on MiG-27 and MiG-31.

The only problem is that the GSh-6-23 is *heavy*, running almost 200 kg,
and on the MiG-31 it only has 260 rounds... giving it about two seconds
of full-rate (7000 per minute) firing.

Other than that, it seems like a heckuva scary piece of iron.

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Slam on brakes accordingly.