Leading Turns With Rudder

On Jul 21, 1:12*pm, PMSC Member wrote:
On Jul 21, 3:27 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl

Let's not wander too far afield and make assumptions about what a
great guy this CFIG might otherwise be. *We've been told he teaches
*student pilots* "that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing
you do is feed in rudder."

We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. *Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.

Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? *You don't understand the problem. *And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). *See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. *I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. *To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

Look, I was replying to you wandering afield and assuming the guy is
clueless and ought to have his ticked yanked. He could be the worse
instructor around, he might be the best. The point is just picking on
one statement does not prove anything. I laid out what sort of
discussion/other issues I'd expect a CFIG to raise. It is probably
useless to try to discuss somebody's professional teaching skills by
saying "he says X". I kind of doubt the discussion starts and ends
there with no more conversation with the student. What else does he
say? What caveats does he place on this? What does he demonstrate to
students, what practical lesson approach and drills does he have
students do to improve their feel for turn coordination, what is his
approach to incipient spin and spin training, etc. Oops we don't know
any of that but hell lets take away the guys ticket since somebody
says he says something.

Spouting off your opinion on usenet and then denegrating any opinions
on usenet is kind of amusing.

Darryl
(who leads with rudder frequently)

On Jul 21, 5:12 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Jul 21, 1:12 pm, PMSC Member wrote:



On Jul 21, 3:27 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:11 pm, PMSC Member wrote:

On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, sisu1a wrote:

An SSA 'Master' CFIG I know is perpetually hammering it into his
students that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing you do
is feed in rudder. [snip]

If true, this guy ought to have his CFIG revoked.

End of story.

And that would be why? You'd be revoking a lot of CFIG tickets.

Along with emphasizing the importance of foot work, hopefully he's
talked about the dangers of over ruddering and stall/spin accidents
and talked about how different gliders handle and may or may not
really benefit from early rudder application. And hopefully he really
works on decreases focus on programatic things and transitions
students to developing a feel for flying these gliders.

Darryl

Let's not wander too far afield and make assumptions about what a
great guy this CFIG might otherwise be. We've been told he teaches
*student pilots* "that to initiate a turn in a glider, the FIRST thing
you do is feed in rudder."

We all know there are certain gliders that, under certain
circumstances, are best flown with leading rudder. Typically, we're
talking about a glass ship with heavy wings (esp. with water) and
thermal entry at thermaling speed, at altitude.

Not trainers.

Not students.

Not if the spoilers are open.

Not in the pattern.

Not at low agl altitude under any circumstance.

Is is REALLY necessary to review the stats on stall/spin accidents,
AGAIN?

I have never in 20 odd years met an instructor that teaches students
this way, and have great difficulty believing this is as common as you
suggest.

This doesn't worry you? You don't understand the problem. And you
aren't going to figure it out reading usenet :-). See a good CFIG.

The idea that any CFIG would teach this way frankly astounds me. I
regard it as malpractice of the very worst sort. The fact that various
people on this group report this as a not uncommon practice troubles
me. To the extent that this is true, it supports the allegation that
many pilots simply don't have the knowledge to fly safely.

Look, I was replying to you wandering afield and assuming the guy is
clueless and ought to have his ticked yanked. He could be the worse
instructor around, he might be the best. The point is just picking on
one statement does not prove anything. I laid out what sort of
discussion/other issues I'd expect a CFIG to raise. It is probably
useless to try to discuss somebody's professional teaching skills by
saying "he says X". I kind of doubt the discussion starts and ends
there with no more conversation with the student. What else does he
say? What caveats does he place on this? What does he demonstrate to
students, what practical lesson approach and drills does he have
students do to improve their feel for turn coordination, what is his
approach to incipient spin and spin training, etc. Oops we don't know
any of that but hell lets take away the guys ticket since somebody
says he says something.

Spouting off your opinion on usenet and then denegrating any opinions
on usenet is kind of amusing.

Darryl
(who leads with rudder frequently)

Well I see you have this completely figured out. You certainly read a
lot more into this exchange than I (or anyone else) wrote, so this is
the end of it for me. Good luck & good soaring to you.