Leading Turns With Rudder

"sisu1a" wrote in message
...
On Jul 22, 4:44 am, wrote:
On Jul 21, 9:08 pm, sisu1a wrote:



I feel compelled at this point to add that this guy does not promote
stomping the rudder or other outwardly unsafe flying habits and is
absolutely fanatical about keeping the string straight, to the point
of obnoxiousness. He would not accept my explanation of mildly
slipping during thermaling ala' Holighaus/Johnson on a flight last
year, outright rejecting it on principal (he was sure I read the
article wrong or remembered it incorrectly).

I also want to add that my concern is geared toward what ab-initio
students should or should not be taught, as it is very hard to unlearn
something, no matter how wrong. As far as I understand the human
brain, it will most likely revert to these early lessons when/if a
'situation' arises and stress levels are very high.

I certainly don't think he should have his ticket yanked by any means,
I just have my own reservations about the soundness of *possibly*
instilling reflexes into people that can potentially be dangerous if
reverted to at an inopportune moment. This forum seems like a good
place for this discussion, to see how others more qualified than I
weigh in on the subject before making it a campaign and I thank
everyone thus far for their thoughtful responses.

-Paul

Paul -- I can't reconcile these statements and your OP. How does one
teach applying rudder "first, as it's own control movement" and yet be
absolutely fanatical about keeping the yaw string centered?


Well, it makes instruction with him about as much fun as it sounds
(assuming your not a hapless student that doesn't know better and
would never stand up to his authority which BTW is very authoritative,
complete w/yelling tendencies but I digress...). It should be noted
that he is using a 2-33 (our other trainer is an L-13 Blanik, which he
is convinced it is awful for instruction compared to the wonderful
2-33...) to push this technique, which is not exactly snappy in ANY
responses so I doubt the string is getting too far in most of the
time. 95% of the instruction he does is with newbies who won't talk
back, so your point is probably never brought up (the rest of the
folks just grit their teeth, bite their tongue and finish their BFR
ASAP).
Recapping, my real concern of this does not come from how the 2-33
specifically likes/dislikes it. My concern comes from building this
technique by rote as a reflex in students because it translates poorly
to most other gliders, and seems like it could potentially lead to
disaster down the road, from my limited perspective. Honest, this
stuff actually gets written on a board and drilled into students
heads, I'm not making this up.

-Paul
(trying to keep descriptions as generic as possible because I DON'T
want to call him out)


Well, Paul---
Have you personally been trained by this instructor, or is this second hand
"distilled" information.
Perhaps the full instruction is more complete---or maybe not.

The art of instruction is in learning the essence of the thing to be
taught, then breaking it down into steps so it can be taught. What is
actually being taught is (or should be), coordinated turns. This does not
mean apply the same rudder and aileron movement at the same time, or the
same control pressures at the same time. It means do what it takes to get
the effect desired-i.e. crisp, string centered, constant airspeed turn. How
that is to be done varies from aircraft to aircraft and from airspeed to
other airspeed. If the student learns first what a coordinated turn is and
is not, then everything else falls into place, and the law of primacy will
prevail in a pinch.

Hartley Falbaum USA

Well, Paul---
Have you personally been trained by this instructor, or is this second hand
"distilled" information.
Perhaps the full instruction is more complete---or maybe not.

Hi Harty,

While I showed up to my club already rated a private pilot, I have
indeed experienced this phenomenon first hand. Being the new guy, I
kept my mouth shut during my field check flights and subsequent ship
checkout flights. While doing some airwork on my commercial at a later
date though, he was very upset with my turn coordination as I was
resisting his very loud/high pitched insistence that I MUST lead with
the rudder for proper turn coordination in a glider-period. I
explained to him that the plane I normally flew (Sisu 1a) would not
appreciate that very much, nor would a lot of other ships I have the
aspirations to fly, that it was contrary to my previous training, and
a reflex that I would rather not develop. In my book slipping =
inefficient while skidding = dangerous, no mater how loud you yell.

He also was very upset with my thermalling technique (the mild slip
thing), and in his eyes that reflected on my qualifications as a
commercial pilot (I tried to explain that I only wanted to cover PTS
issues, and that my personal thermalling technique was not actually
part of the PTS...). He has already accused me of 'arguing' with him,
when defending myself from things he was trying to ding me for that he
was simply NOT right about (seems the FAA wanted to 'argue' with him
too once books got involved). I personally wrote off flying with him
(actually, the only ones who go up with him are newbs or BFR's in a
pinch), but when I am on the ground I am constantly hearing his lesson
on how a glider turns, and just in case I heard wrong all those times
(including in the air...) it is also in writing. It just really annoys
me, since this guy teaches this SO authoritatively along with other
flat out misconceptions (although the rudder is the only one I deemed
potentially hazardous and am seeking outside opinions on). I'm trying
my best not to smear, as that would be unproductive and this fellow
DOES have a lot to offer despite my feelings on this issue. Ignorance
is curable, and luckily this guys' not stupid.

-Paul

Paul -

Just so you know, you're not alone. We too have instructors up here
who misunderstand what a "CFIG" rating means.

We say that a PPL is a "license to learn". We need to emphasize that
a CFI certificate is simply a "license to teach" - not a license to
have all the answers or to have a God-complex.

And a CFI cert does not mean you STOP learning; though many seem to
think getting one of these is a signal that they know all they'll ever
need to.

--Noel