Abrupt Controller

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
Kobra wrote:

was unprofessional to lay me out like that. This reminds me of how a
mid-air occurred in LA because a new controller took time to admonish a
GA pilot for a couple minutes while a commercial plane and a Piper
collided right in front of him on his screen.


I'll leave the comments about your handling to others, but your
characterization of that 1986 tragedy over Cerritos, CA is grossly
misleading.

The NTSB found no fault with the controller working those aircraft. In
fact, he is a highly regarded airspace manager today.

The Piper pilot was illegally within the TCA (Class B airspace).

Hello Sam,

I did not mean to be misleading and of course I don't have all the facts.
Using only the information I do have, I feel it a fact that he spent
needless time lecturing a GA pilot who was also illegally in the TCA. It
would not be a stretch to infer that this distracted him from his scope. No
one can say that it's not *possible* or even likely that if he didn't give
his lecture that he may have seen the conflict and warned the airliner about
the VFR target's position and direction of flight with the typical "altitude
known".

Hey, who knows, but I am surprised yet happy that this person came back to
the FAA and ATC. The show *Air Emergency* (which is how I learned about
this) made it appear that once he came back to work, he immediately decided
that ATC was not for him and he never worked for ATC again. I'm happy
everything worked out for him. I felt really bad for him when I saw the
show.

Kobra

Kobra writes:

I did not mean to be misleading and of course I don't have all the facts.
Using only the information I do have, I feel it a fact that he spent
needless time lecturing a GA pilot who was also illegally in the TCA. It
would not be a stretch to infer that this distracted him from his scope. No
one can say that it's not *possible* or even likely that if he didn't give
his lecture that he may have seen the conflict and warned the airliner about
the VFR target's position and direction of flight with the typical "altitude
known".

Hey, who knows, but I am surprised yet happy that this person came back to
the FAA and ATC. The show *Air Emergency* (which is how I learned about
this) made it appear that once he came back to work, he immediately decided
that ATC was not for him and he never worked for ATC again. I'm happy
everything worked out for him. I felt really bad for him when I saw the
show.

If this is the one, I see no mention of ATC distraction:

NTSB Identification: DCA86AA041A.
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 31249.
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 129: Foreign AERONAVES DE MEXICO, S.A.
Accident occurred Sunday, August 31, 1986 in CERRITOS, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/7/1988
Aircraft: McDonnell Douglas DC-9-32, registration: XAJED
Injuries: 82 Fatal, 8 Minor.

The Safety Board's full report on this investigation is provided as Aviation
Accident Report number AAR-87/07. To obtain a copy of this report, or to view
the executive summary online, please see the Web site at
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/publictn.htm


AT APRX 1140 PDT, A PIPER PA-28, N4891F, DEPARTED TORRANCE, CA ON A VFR FLT TO
BIG BEAR, CA. AFTER TAKEOFF, THE PLT TURNED EASTBOUND TWD THE PARADISE VORTAC
WITH HIS X-PONDER SQUAWKING 1200. AT THAT TIME, AEROMEXICO FLT 498 (DC-8, MEX
REGISTRY XA-JED) WAS ON ARRIVAL, RCVG NORTHBOUND VECTORS FM LAX APCH CTL (AR-1
CTLR) FOR AN ILS APCH TO THE LAX INTL ARPT. AT 1151:04, THE CTLR ASKED FLT 498
TO RDC SPD TO 190 KTS & DSCND FM 7000' TO 6000'. DRG THIS TIME, THE CTLR WAS
CTLG OTR TRAFFIC & PROVIDING RADAR ADVISORIES, BUT DIDN'T SEE A DISPLAY FOR
N4891F ON HIS SCOPE. AT 1152:09, N4891F & FLT 498 CONVERGED & COLLIDED AT APRX
6560', THEN FELL TO THE GND. AN INV REVEALED N4891F HAD INADVERTENTLY ENTERED
THE LAX TERMINAL CONTROL AREA (TCA) & WASN'T IN RADIO CONTACT WITH ATC. LAX
TRACON WASN'T EQUIPPED WITH AN AUTO CONFLICT ALERT SYS & THE ANALOG BEACON
RESPONSE FM N4891F'S X-PONDER WASN'T DISPLAYED DUE TO EQUIP CONFIGURATION.
N4891F'S PSN WAS DISPLAYED BY AN ALPHANUMERIC TRIANGLE, BUT THE PRIMARY TARGET
WASN'T DISPLAYED DUE TO AN ATMOSPHERIC INVERSION.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of
this accident as follows:
RADAR,APPROACH/DEPARTURE..INADEQUATE
PROCEDURE INADEQUATE..FAA(OTHER/ORGANIZATION)


Contributing Factors

IDENTIFICATION OF AIRCRAFT ON RADAR..NOT ATTAINED
PROCEDURES/DIRECTIVES..NOT FOLLOWED..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT
UNSAFE/HAZARDOUS CONDITION..INADVERTENT..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT
VISUAL LOOKOUT..INADEQUATE..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT
VISUAL LOOKOUT..INADEQUATE..PILOT IN COMMAND

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Kobra writes:

I did not mean to be misleading and of course I don't have all the
facts. Using only the information I do have, I feel it a fact that he
spent needless time lecturing a GA pilot who was also illegally in
the TCA. It would not be a stretch to infer that this distracted him
from his scope. No one can say that it's not *possible* or even
likely that if he didn't give his lecture that he may have seen the
conflict and warned the airliner about the VFR target's position and
direction of flight with the typical "altitude known".

Hey, who knows, but I am surprised yet happy that this person came
back to the FAA and ATC. The show *Air Emergency* (which is how I
learned about this) made it appear that once he came back to work, he
immediately decided that ATC was not for him and he never worked for
ATC again. I'm happy everything worked out for him. I felt really
bad for him when I saw the show.

If this is the one, I see no mention of ATC distraction:

NTSB Identification: DCA86AA041A.
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 31249.
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 129: Foreign AERONAVES DE MEXICO, S.A.
Accident occurred Sunday, August 31, 1986 in CERRITOS, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 3/7/1988
Aircraft: McDonnell Douglas DC-9-32, registration: XAJED
Injuries: 82 Fatal, 8 Minor.

The Safety Board's full report on this investigation is provided as
Aviation Accident Report number AAR-87/07. To obtain a copy of this
report, or to view the executive summary online, please see the Web
site at http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/publictn.htm


AT APRX 1140 PDT, A PIPER PA-28, N4891F, DEPARTED TORRANCE, CA ON A
VFR FLT TO BIG BEAR, CA. AFTER TAKEOFF, THE PLT TURNED EASTBOUND TWD
THE PARADISE VORTAC WITH HIS X-PONDER SQUAWKING 1200. AT THAT TIME,
AEROMEXICO FLT 498 (DC-8, MEX REGISTRY XA-JED) WAS ON ARRIVAL, RCVG
NORTHBOUND VECTORS FM LAX APCH CTL (AR-1 CTLR) FOR AN ILS APCH TO THE
LAX INTL ARPT. AT 1151:04, THE CTLR ASKED FLT 498 TO RDC SPD TO 190
KTS & DSCND FM 7000' TO 6000'. DRG THIS TIME, THE CTLR WAS CTLG OTR
TRAFFIC & PROVIDING RADAR ADVISORIES, BUT DIDN'T SEE A DISPLAY FOR
N4891F ON HIS SCOPE. AT 1152:09, N4891F & FLT 498 CONVERGED & COLLIDED
AT APRX 6560', THEN FELL TO THE GND. AN INV REVEALED N4891F HAD
INADVERTENTLY ENTERED THE LAX TERMINAL CONTROL AREA (TCA) & WASN'T IN
RADIO CONTACT WITH ATC. LAX TRACON WASN'T EQUIPPED WITH AN AUTO
CONFLICT ALERT SYS & THE ANALOG BEACON RESPONSE FM N4891F'S X-PONDER
WASN'T DISPLAYED DUE TO EQUIP CONFIGURATION. N4891F'S PSN WAS
DISPLAYED BY AN ALPHANUMERIC TRIANGLE, BUT THE PRIMARY TARGET WASN'T
DISPLAYED DUE TO AN ATMOSPHERIC INVERSION.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable
cause(s) of this accident as follows:
RADAR,APPROACH/DEPARTURE..INADEQUATE
PROCEDURE INADEQUATE..FAA(OTHER/ORGANIZATION)


Contributing Factors

IDENTIFICATION OF AIRCRAFT ON RADAR..NOT ATTAINED
PROCEDURES/DIRECTIVES..NOT FOLLOWED..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT
UNSAFE/HAZARDOUS CONDITION..INADVERTENT..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT
VISUAL LOOKOUT..INADEQUATE..PILOT OF OTHER AIRCRAFT
VISUAL LOOKOUT..INADEQUATE..PILOT IN COMMAND


Nobody cares what you see, you moron.

Kobra wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

Kobra wrote:


was unprofessional to lay me out like that. This reminds me of how a
mid-air occurred in LA because a new controller took time to admonish a
GA pilot for a couple minutes while a commercial plane and a Piper
collided right in front of him on his screen.


I'll leave the comments about your handling to others, but your
characterization of that 1986 tragedy over Cerritos, CA is grossly
misleading.

The NTSB found no fault with the controller working those aircraft. In
fact, he is a highly regarded airspace manager today.

The Piper pilot was illegally within the TCA (Class B airspace).


Hello Sam,

I did not mean to be misleading and of course I don't have all the facts.
Using only the information I do have, I feel it a fact that he spent
needless time lecturing a GA pilot who was also illegally in the TCA. It
would not be a stretch to infer that this distracted him from his scope. No
one can say that it's not *possible* or even likely that if he didn't give
his lecture that he may have seen the conflict and warned the airliner about
the VFR target's position and direction of flight with the typical "altitude
known".

Hey, who knows, but I am surprised yet happy that this person came back to
the FAA and ATC. The show *Air Emergency* (which is how I learned about
this) made it appear that once he came back to work, he immediately decided
that ATC was not for him and he never worked for ATC again. I'm happy
everything worked out for him. I felt really bad for him when I saw the
show.

Kobra


You should read the full NTSB report. I found it on-line this morning
with a Google search:

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR87-07.pdf

The Piper's primary target didn't show because of a weather inversion.
Because he was sqawking 1200 his beacon return was rudimentary (which
the NTSB did find fault with).

The other aircraft that violated the TCA was being worked by the
controller. When he determined (no mandatory Mode C at the time) that
the aircraft was inside the TCA without a clearance the controller made
it clear that he was inside the airspace and that he needed to use his
TCA chart more dilgently. It was an appropriate response to the
intrustion; not a tirade.

Traffic was light for LAX airspace, and there were two controllers on
this position. Had they both had their eyes glued on the DC-9 they
still couldn't have detected a potential mid-air in the making. The
technology at the time was just too crappy.